Re: Why Germany Should Leave the EU

Most discussion about a potential breakup of the Eurozone assumes that Greece and other financially troubled countries would be the ones who ended up abandoning the common euro currency. But there

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

2 (edited by Justinian I 12-Apr-2012 23:49:10)

Re: Why Germany Should Leave the EU

Every country on earth should accept the US dollar.

Then we wouldn't have currency manipulation (China).

Re: Why Germany Should Leave the EU

Greece is so disrespectful I almost want to say screw them anyways.

The people there make me sick with their desires for the 13 months of pay a year, month off, and super benefits.

That is greed and more greed.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
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Re: Why Germany Should Leave the EU

I think they're honestly so stupid and indoctrinated they believe that its owed to them and that it's physically possible. Wannabe communist leaders have told them that it is while herding them like sheep for decades. We're not far behind them.

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Re: Why Germany Should Leave the EU

"if Germany were the one to leave" 

Alternatively, governments could tax the rich like they ought to have been in the first place.

Re: Why Germany Should Leave the EU

Yeah... because Western Europe is definitely the region of the world known for its great pro-business tax structure today!  tongue

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Re: Why Germany Should Leave the EU

Germany leaving the Euro would be seen as Europe absconding with foreign investment.

Re: Why Germany Should Leave the EU

> Zarf BeebleBrix wrote:

> Yeah... because Western Europe is definitely the region of the world known for its great pro-business tax structure today!  tongue

Costs of doing business is passed down to the consumer anyway, Zarf, and you know it.  tongue

Re: Why Germany Should Leave the EU

His point is that when consumers have options which do not include those costs, aka cheaper alternatives, they buy those and the businesses with higher costs of doing business lose business.

You missed the point.

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Re: Why Germany Should Leave the EU

Yes, I do.  If cost of doing business, taxes included, just get passed down to the consumer... you're outright admitting that the tax would become a tax on consumers, then?

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Re: Why Germany Should Leave the EU

Of course a tax on ANYONE in an economy is ultimately a tax on the poor and the middle class consumer.  This is why the ONLY tax system over the long term that I would advocate would be a tax system designed to work itself out of a job.  This, however, is not the current philosophy of the tax systems out there, designed as they are to tax perpetually, with no vision to establishing a tax-less society.

All the article above is yet another technofix - not a solution at all,  It's merely just another argument for how to keep the rich's currently tax-sheltered wealth from being taxed.  It is wealth, mind you, that does NOT create jobs but just sits there, hoarded, collecting interest income for itself by perpetuating debt onto others, usually the poor and middle class.  It is not wealth which create productivity, and it is productivity which provides for economic growth.
 
For the short term, governments should tax that wealth, and, in tandem with every possible technological innovation we can muster, use that wealth to create societal systems that regulate and pay for themselves, systems will eventually lead to a 0% tax environment for everyone. 

A paradigm shift is necessary, a shift from exploitative, inefficient capitalism, to mutually beneficial, equitable, sustainable CAPITALISM.  Yes, there is such a thing.

Re: Why Germany Should Leave the EU

"This, however, is not the current philosophy of the tax systems out there, designed as they are to tax perpetually, with no vision to establishing a tax-less society."

Well obviously until we manage to steal self-replicating robot technology from the rich, who've kept it secret ever since they got it from aliens thousands of years ago, it'll be hard to realize this vision. But I totally agree it should be the goal!

"All the article above is yet another technofix - not a solution at all,  It's merely just another argument for how to keep the rich's currently tax-sheltered wealth from being taxed."

You obviously misspoke. Could you link the article you're talking about? It's clearly not the one linked above.

"A paradigm shift is necessary, a shift from exploitative, inefficient capitalism, to mutually beneficial, equitable, sustainable CAPITALISM.  Yes, there is such a thing."

Care to describe it?

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Re: Why Germany Should Leave the EU

You are forget that you are ignored, Kemp?  I am waiting for your apology and for you to cease with your McCarthyistic accusations and slander.

14 (edited by The Yell 13-Apr-2012 05:12:43)

Re: Why Germany Should Leave the EU

i will describe it

just send away for a FREE pamphlet

only need $2.00 shipping & handling

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Why Germany Should Leave the EU

There is no way around it.  Faced with an awareness of the suffering in the world; faced with an awareness of the injustice being perpetuated; faced with any awareness at all of the fact that a few profit off of this suffering and injustice, to be "conservative" - and by "conservative" I mean, for those who are confused as to what CONSERVATIVE means, to CONSERVE the status quo - you are either being willfully selfish, self-serving, egocentric, irresponsible, or woefully blind.

There's no way around it.  TAX the @#% out of the rich; economic crisis solved.  I only hope our governments will use the tax-dollars responsibly to establish a society where one day there will be a 0% tax environment for all.

16 (edited by V.Kemp 13-Apr-2012 08:20:39)

Re: Why Germany Should Leave the EU

"You are forget that you are ignored, Kemp?  I am waiting for your apology and for you to cease with your McCarthyistic accusations and slander."

You frequently concede that you cannot even defend your positions, let alone well. That's your business.

You didn't understand the point I was making. You juvenilely accuse me of insulting you because the point was over your head. I even explained the point to you more simply but you choose to troll rather than respond to my simple point.

I've explained myself and given you a multitude of chances to reply to my simple questions of elaboration on vague claims you've repeatedly made but never explained. That you are unable or unwilling to explain ridiculously vague statements you've never substantiated into more than simplistic, generalized bullshit is your problem. That you can't understand my simple points and claim offense because I used certain words is just stupid. I'm sorry that you find the words "greed" and "jealousy" inherently offensive, regardless of the context in which they are used. But that's your problem.

"I mean, for those who are confused as to what CONSERVATIVE means, to CONSERVE the status quo - you are either being willfully selfish, self-serving, egocentric, irresponsible, or woefully blind."

This is inconsistent with the fact that capitalist nations' poor are among the wealthiest people on the planet earth, despite this system which you attack as horribly faulty. You demonize the system which has blessed all members of society--rich and poor alike--without mention of its obvious multitude of finer points. How can you claim to discriminate between its inherent virtues and room for improvement when you don't even acknowledge its virtues?



"There's no way around it.  TAX the @#% out of the rich; economic crisis solved."

Please explain. A 99% tax rate on the rich wouldn't balance anyone's budget (even pretending they wouldn't change their behavior).

Even if governments stole all of the belongings of their populations' rich, the upcoming economic crises wouldn't be assuaged.

They simply don't have that much money in comparison to the deficits and debts of governments. There aren't enough rich and, as much as they have, they just don't have _that_ much money nor wealth. Absolutely nobody crunching the numbers, libertarian nor communist, comes anywhere remotely near backing up your ridiculous claim. It's false. Factually, indisputably false.

How can you not know this (it's been stated and referenced here repeatedly), post anyway, have have strong opinions on matters you know nothing about? How can you formulate opinions on matters when lacking knowledge and understanding of basic facts like this? You might as well blame old ladies and toddlers for possessing wealth which could be redistributed to the poor. And call them bad names. Because what you're posing is just bizarre, ignorant, and false.

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Re: Why Germany Should Leave the EU

Germany won't leave the Euro zone, because:

1. A german currency would have a very high value, that would ruin the economy which is highy dependent on exports. The weak euro-nations keep the euro cheap and the exports up. This would ruin the european economy, too.

2. Germany is, measured by its size, the number 1 exporter in the world, in value no. 2 after China. The Euro supports Germanys success, because it allows great exports into its neighbours.

3. Germany paid and pays a high price for the Euro. Germans were forced 1990 to drop its own currency, its symbol for success after WW2 the "Mark", for the unification. They never liked the new currency, but accepted it. Faced with the common european market and one currency, the german economy got under pressure to lower its costs. What some nations face today in deep cuts, germans faced 10 years ago. Other euro nations cry about pension ages of 63 or 65. They cry about cuts in social welfare. In germany these cuts are even deeper. Pension age is now 67 (most younger people even expect to work until 70), the sector of very low income jobs is exploding. Everything to keep up in the global market. Now Germany guarantees for hundreds of billions Euros spent for the e. g. the Greek or Irish. If Germany leaves the Euro zone these loans would lose most of its value and germans would have to pay for everything. The german population wouldn't be very happy about this. Well, germans aren't designed for riots in the streets. Germans build tanks and carry the riots outside than...

Re: Why Germany Should Leave the EU

hahahaha

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Re: Why Germany Should Leave the EU

> xeno syndicated wrote:

> "if Germany were the one to leave" 

Alternatively, governments could tax the rich like they ought to have been in the first place.


Taxes are not a solution but a stopgap measure which will do even more harm in the future.

Je maintiendrai

Re: Why Germany Should Leave the EU

> Zarf BeebleBrix wrote:

> Yeah... because Western Europe is definitely the region of the world known for its great pro-business tax structure today!  tongue

Obama named the Netherlands a tax-haven, in the same sentece as banana republics! big_smile

Je maintiendrai

Re: Why Germany Should Leave the EU

Now that America is going to have the highest corporate tax rate in the world, Obama will be invading all of your nations because you're helping the evil rich in our epic class war against them!

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

22 (edited by Altruist 15-Dec-2012 14:42:25)

Re: Why Germany Should Leave the EU

There were 2 main reasons to start the Eurpean Union (initially differently named) after WWII:
1) To form a cartel for agricultural goods, steel and coal.
2) To bind together the Europoean Nations, namely France and Germany, so that another war could be avoided.

Many bad things can be said about the EU but those primary aims were reached very successfully. Successful to an extent that war between members of the EU seems even no longer imaginable and this is not only due to the economic interdependence but also very much due to the cultural exchange.

Cultural diversity
A 3rd success evolved during the 2 last decades almost as a side effect: the concept of European Regions. Most borders in Europe were almost drawn as harshly as colonial borders in Africa, right thru the people and their languages and cultures: the Irish, the Basque, Tirol, Alemanni and many more. Many of them led to civil wars, independency movements, suppression and terrorist activities until very recently. Some of it is still going on but to a much lesser extent and brutality than it used to be. There are several reasons to this, a major one is that as a side effect of the introduction of free movement, living and working within the EU, people bound by history, language and culture but divided by borders, no longer felt like divided.

The general feeling within the EU is that the EU is NOT a melting pot like the US but a place where it is possible to keep your culture and identity. Languages are taught again which were forbidden and suppressed for decades, sometimes centuries.

The ability to keep and to even widen/rebirth the cultural diversity of old Europe within the EU is, from my experience, what people worldwide found the most thrilling, interesting about the EU. It gave hope to so many struggles that there is a way, a political solution to live in peace AND cultural freedom... without loosing your identity.

I agree completly that not Greece or Spain or Portugal are the problem in the EU but Germany. And Germany is the problem because it is the capitalistic most successful country within the EU. Capitalism has given us an incredible high productivity and some an enormous wealth but it comes at a high price to be paid by others. Capitalism alone without political guidelines and restrictions is not the friend of the people. Most posts above are plain examples of it: lower wages, less holiday, longer work and so on. Harsh poverty is on the agenda again right within the wealthy EU and I am not only speaking about Greece but even about Germany: as successful as Germany's economy is, a parallel development is the impoverishment of wide parts of the society.

The EU, as a great experiment, so far has shown
* ways how countries can live in peace together who have fought each other for more times than anybody can count
* ways how the different cultures of people can be embedded without them loosing their identity

But it failed to solve the old problem how to embed an economical system like capitalism in a way that it doesn't behave like the fiend of culture, diversity and prosperity for all. And at the moment this old problem threatens everything good what the experiment EU has achieved so far.

What we urgently need is a political fix... not a mainly economical although it may involve quite some changes to the economy.
It's a challenge which looks even more difficult than lasting peace in Europe looked about 60 years ago.

If the EU, or rather the people in the EU, can find a solution even to this, the EU is again the place where many in the world look hopefully for as an example for a better future.

edit: typo

Another old bloodstained Harkonnen.

Re: Why Germany Should Leave the EU

The borders part almost works for me, then I remember you have as big an illegal alien issue as we do.

The languages and culture part almost worked, then I realized it ain't helping you.

The economy part made me laugh.

You want 13 months pay a year, retirement at 55, pensions high enough to tour the world, and crap as bad.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
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Re: Why Germany Should Leave the EU

Don't worry we're printing trillions to give to their banks.

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