Xeno,

A lot of poor people have the wrong values. Not that they are necessarily lazy, but they are definitely following the wrong formula.

For example, I think at the margins. Most people think about satisfying themselves in the moment.

Last chance, Einstein.

Give me a straight answer.

You seem to think poor people are poor and thus in thus in hell because they are greedy and deserve the hell they are in; that the rich, conversely, became rich by being generous and are thus deserving of the heavenly state they are in.  Is this correct?

/auto-ignore Einstein on if he doesn't answer this Yes or No question and / or clarify his position.

> V.Kemp wrote:

> There's a reason people in Cuba, North Korea, and China don't have the awesome things we have: They're not compensated for developing and producing them.

I have access to things more items than compared to the free-market of Australia...*continues to eat his bacon!!!* (I spent a few weeks looking for bacon, and it turned out there was heaps of it in the supermarket, I was looking in the wrong place and I don't know how to say bacon in China [I probably should have learnt how to say it and ask for help]...but there was a few weeks of people in IRC teasing me about eating bacon! X()

I will concede that this is basically because in Australia, I was living in one of the most isolated cities in the world (isolated in that it is miles and miles away from any other city). This means transportation costs are insane, and furthermore the population of the city was only 1.7 million (so demand means that competition isn't exactly high).

China is still a poor option though, because of the transitition to a more free market, there are people creating their own businesses EVERYWHERE! (I mean everywhere, if I walk in any given direction from my front door, within the first 2 minutes I will come across at least 2 fruit vendors, 3 pharmacies, 2-3 hair dressers, at least 1 medical clinic, and DOZENS of restaurants. There will be vendors selling knick knacks, paddywhacks, and bones for the dog, along the side of the road. Furthermore, a 3-4 minute taxi ride will drop me off at the centre of the city [total cost of the taxi fair, $1.15US...suck it! ], or bus [grand total [~$0.15US], where I have access to international labels from Europe, Japan, Korea, the US, etc).

Fair enough, I do live in one of the economic free zones, as well as an area that is more expensive than other parts of China, but thanks to the economic boom in China, millions are actually being lifted out of poverty and into middle class lifestyles (and this has seen migration of up to 150 million workers to the cities looking to also get on the bandwagon). Sure there is still a poor underclass in China, but it is more confined to the rural areas of China, where expasion hasn't reached yet, but as the spending power of the middle class increases, so does the demand for agriculture (increase in delicacies...sea cucumbers here can go for $1000US for 500g...rediculous!...still doesn't stop shops dedicated to ONLY selling sea cucumbers from popping up in EVERY shopping centre in the city I live in though).

I do realise that this goes back to proving your point, and I am not out to argue with your overall point, but to provide some insight, and potentially clarity, that not only strengthens your argument (by giving another example where a freer market has lead to an increase of the middle class...and one that has move from a state-owned and controlled market that was stagnant and actually causing the problems Xeno is against and wants to stop). China is a poor example to be grouped with North Korea (I do not know anything about the state of Cuba ) since it has changed significantly in the last 10 years, but is also an excellent example to use to demonstrate your point...

i thought this thread was going to be about people named Rich

Just out of curiosity. When I think of "rich," I think of $100 million + in assets. A doctor is not rich in my book. Do you people consider doctors rich, seriously?

I saw, as you have, wornstrum, the rise of the middle class in China.  I spent 3 years there from 2007 to 2010. I have since returned to the west and am utterly astounded by the deterioration of the values of free market capitalism and democratic principals that provided for the west's economic growth in the past.  The same values which we are subverting, the Chinese are just beginning to exemplify.   

Astounding is the fact that in spite of the vast number of Chinese "peasants" in their countryside, the gini-coefficient levels of inequality overall in China and the US are comparable.  This should shock us!  But, I am afraid, this just won't sink into the minds of those in the west who have not seen for their own eyes what is happening in China.  Yes, there are other worrisome issues regarding the rise of China's middle class which I won't get into now, but, overall, the west needs to revisit the values for which we've purported founded our democracies, and take a long, hard look at how our systems of justice, politics, finance and governance have deviated from those values.

[EDIT: Mult. post spam]

EDIT: Mult. post spam

> xeno syndicated wrote:

> "I saw, as you have, wornstrum, the rise of the middle class in China.  I spent 3 years there from 2007 to 2010. I have since returned to the west and am utterly astounded by the deterioration of the values of free market capitalism and democratic principals that provided for the west's economic growth in the past.  The same values which we are subverting, the Chinese are just beginning to exemplify. "

The Chinese only achieved these goals by using similar principles.

"Astounding is the fact that in spite of the vast number of Chinese "peasants" in their countryside, the gini-coefficient levels of inequality overall in China and the US are comparable."

Well, do you factor in that the vast majority of the population live on the east coast? (seriously, the population of Shanghai is higher than the whole of Australia, Beijing is almost the same). I wouldn't say that the system is bad when isolated people (yes they are isolated from major cities through the HuKou system, and although you could say that they kind of go hand in hand with the economic boom, such a system is NOT employed in free markets like Australia or the US). Wages are on the increase in China (looks like a landed a job actually, and the pay isn't bad), and like I keep saying about market forces, more disposable income means higher demand on raw goods.

"This should shock us!  But, I am afraid, this just won't sink into the minds of those in the west who have not seen for their own eyes what is happening in China."

...I do not think I need to touch this one...I am sure someone else will do it for me...

"Yes, there are other worrisome issues regarding the rise of China's middle class which I won't get into now"

No, you SHOULD get into it, since it HAS become relevant...

"overall, the west needs to revisit the values for which we've purported founded our democracies, and take a long, hard look at how our systems of justice, politics, finance and governance have deviated from those values."

I am pretty sure that they continually revisit it, through political pressure. Reforms occur, political elections force issues to surface, agencies that watch and monitor things like inflation, unemployment, etc, all these things happen to stop problems. Furthermore, you have the rights to voice your concerns (another value), and the Occupy Wall Street movement confirms that, but having the right to voice a concern doesn't always mean that it is correct nor that other people will agree to it. I do not hate or envy the rich, they have the freedom to seek that, and to take that away is to actually deny people the very foundation on which the US was built...

LOLZ @ a forum mod editing the post of another forum mod.

Einstein,

Ah. Not sure why cash or long-term assets should factor in the decision on whether someone is rich. Of course, I would consider it financially imprudent to have all of one's assets in a bank account, but I'm not sure why that should make a difference on whether they are rich or not.

Then again, I have to admit that owning non-cash assets, which produce a passive income and/or appreciate in value, is a symbol of status and confers a sense of pride.

~Wornstrum~
"Reforms occur, political elections force issues to surface, agencies that watch and monitor things like inflation, unemployment, etc, all these things happen to stop problems."

Maybe where you're from. In the USA  we use the "kick the can down the road" strategy. Eventually we're going to implode like Greece! Except we're the USA. So it's going to mess everyone's shit up way more! (And we haven't even seen how bad Greece is going to have it yet) I'm so excited!!

xeno mockery segment:

The majority have the most votes. They have the power now. If they choose to spend it eating chemical filled animals raised in tiny boxes, getting shitfaced, and voting for whichever corporate crony promises them the most stuff, they're just getting what they deserve. What's wrong with people getting what they deserve?

We'll forum block you when someone figures out how the interface works.