Re: 'It's 100 Percent Beef': Company on Defensive as It Closes Plants

The topic of this discussion is NOT designed to be for the product itself as it has already been deemed safe to eat by the USDA. The point of this discussion is designed to discuss whether the government should be allowed to yet again put their hands into a business and tell it how to run.

The media has a right to paint a picture of any company they desire as it is freedom of speech to do so. And likewise each particular company purchasing this "pink slime" has the right to decide whether or not to purchase this product based on their view of it.

This is the way the economy is supposed to work. When businesses see something as bad practice or not meeting the standards the public wants.

The producing company now has a choice of either closing down their business (or shrinking to only meet the demand they still have) or changing the product in which they conduct business.

This is not about your personal opinion of whether the "pink slime" is right or wrong. It is to question whether or not the government has the right to continue as they have in the past and put their hands in where it does not belong.

The answer is no. The government should allow its citizens to decide if they want a product or not and allow the action to flow from that.

Solis - #7872

2 (edited by Zarf BeebleBrix 27-Mar-2012 16:44:21)

Re: 'It's 100 Percent Beef': Company on Defensive as It Closes Plants

What about in instances where the consumer may not be fully aware of what they are purchasing?

Would a decent compromise be to require disclosure of ingredients, production process, and any possible health effects, so people may be informed about their decision before actually making it?

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: 'It's 100 Percent Beef': Company on Defensive as It Closes Plants

A perfect example of this was in Australia where fish were being imported and sold without telling people that they were fished out of waters with waste (both animal and rubbish). The government then set standards where the companies have to inform consumers where the fish come from, and not just say what fish it is.

I give your invention the worst score imaginable. An A minus MINUS!
~Wornstrum~

Re: 'It's 100 Percent Beef': Company on Defensive as It Closes Plants

Standards should be set. Without a doubt people have the right to know what it is they are buying. However, that being said, the government does NOT have the right to tell a company WHAT they can produce and sell. If I want to sell something that is known to be unhealthy (like cigarettes) then I should be allowed to do so without the government even being allowed to go so far as condemning it.

It is not the government's job to tell the people whether they should or should not buy something. That is for the media and citizens to decide on their own.

Solis - #7872

Re: 'It's 100 Percent Beef': Company on Defensive as It Closes Plants

And the next post will be:
Legalize marijuana...

Seems like were coming full circle here..

- HUMI FOR MOD!!!

Re: 'It's 100 Percent Beef': Company on Defensive as It Closes Plants

No, because we ought to be smart enough to leave alone the discussion of drugs.

The point I am making is the government sets double standards first off. They allow items like cigarettes and alcohol which do more harm than good but then turn around and want to ban items that are considered to be either just as healthy or very close to the original product.

Now, I would prefer to never eat an item I found out was "pink slime" because of the way it is produced. But that is my personal opinion on the matter. It does not mean they should not produce it.

Solis - #7872

Re: 'It's 100 Percent Beef': Company on Defensive as It Closes Plants

Cigarettes and alcohol do more harm yet they're billion dollar industries. Clearly the media is doing its job and the citizens are making the right decisions...

If we're talking about something else I may feel differently, but in general I feel food safety laws are beneficial.

Brother Simon, Keeper of Ages, Defender of Faith.
~ ☭ Fokker

Re: 'It's 100 Percent Beef': Company on Defensive as It Closes Plants

Its not a matter of what is right and wrong Simon. You see, you are basing right and wrong off of your own moral or personal belief system.

In the end, it is the majority that determines what is right and what is wrong (hence why slavery was once considered right).

Food safety laws are beneficial, but only to the point of letting people know what they are buying (ingredients, everything). Not deciding if it can or can not be sold. Now, obviously if it is diseased that is something of an entirely different nature and should be protected against. But this situation we are discussing is found to be as healthy by most doctors as the original product.

Solis - #7872

Re: 'It's 100 Percent Beef': Company on Defensive as It Closes Plants

> Food safety laws are beneficial, but only to the point of letting people know what they are buying (ingredients, everything). Not deciding if it can or can not be sold. Now, obviously if it is diseased that is something of an entirely different nature and should be protected against. But this situation we are discussing is found to be as healthy by most doctors as the original product.

I confess I don't know the context. Link, please, if possible?

Brother Simon, Keeper of Ages, Defender of Faith.
~ ☭ Fokker

10 (edited by The Riddler 27-Mar-2012 20:22:33)

Re: 'It's 100 Percent Beef': Company on Defensive as It Closes Plants

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business/2012/03/its-100-percent-beef-company-on-defensive-as-it-closes-plants/

That was just the starter for me. there are many others that go into more backstory on it

Solis - #7872

Re: 'It's 100 Percent Beef': Company on Defensive as It Closes Plants

Simon, while people undoubtedly make terrible decisions, they make terrible decisions for themselves. When they surrender decision-making power to government, government makes much worse decisions and makes them for everybody.

That people often make bad decisions is no justification for letting anybody else make decisions for them. That is a cultural problem, and there's no government agency that could ever handle it.

Everything The Riddler has said here is right. If you disagree, you are wrong.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: 'It's 100 Percent Beef': Company on Defensive as It Closes Plants

"Simon, while people undoubtedly make terrible decisions, they make terrible decisions for themselves."

I agree, for the most part. But is it really true? Let's assume the average economic output of a person in the United States in their lifetime is 2 million dollars (45k * 45 years). Now take the worst methamphetamine abuser. Presumably the economic output of such a person would drop from 2M to say...0. That's money that could have otherwise been spent at your favorite mom and pop shop. Granted this is an extreme example, but it should be clear that any bad decision could potentially decrease the potential maximum economic output of a person.

"When they surrender decision-making power to government, government makes much worse decisions and makes them for everybody."

That depends. Banning lead from a lot of products (paint, gasoline, etc) was probably one of the more beneficial laws. Banning drinking and driving is also sound. Even if you don't care about the drunk guy, you certainly don't want to randomly get hit by one. Take this to another extreme: the Constitution. The Constitution is obviously decided by the government and I am very glad that my rights are guaranteed by the constitution. I certainly wouldn't trust the guy down the street with it.

"That people often make bad decisions is no justification for letting anybody else make decisions for them."

If my child (should I have one), wants to play with a cobra, I'd say no. I hope you do too.

"Everything The Riddler has said here is right. If you disagree, you are wrong."

Please, this type of statement really says nothing.

*Back to topic*

Now, after looking into this pink slime, it seems to just be processed, lower-quality beef. The link you (Riddler) provided didn't say anything about the government stopping production. In fact, the company blames the media for consumer backlash, which then prompted the grocery stores to drop the product. Sounds exactly like what you wanted to happen??

Brother Simon, Keeper of Ages, Defender of Faith.
~ ☭ Fokker

Re: 'It's 100 Percent Beef': Company on Defensive as It Closes Plants

Simon, what's the point of your methhead example? Government can't stop idiots from using meth; they can only waste money, decreasing economic growth even more than the methhead already does. Are you changing positions? Because your example backs up my point. tongue

"That depends. Banning lead from a lot of products (paint, gasoline, etc) was probably one of the more beneficial laws."

And laws against theft and murder are good too. That some laws are necessary and just doesn't justify limitless federal power. We're talking about schools having food police for kids, laws effecting adults and their own bodies: Not laws against drunk drivers which prevent morons from killing innocent people, as thousands of them do every year.

"If my child (should I have one), wants to play with a cobra, I'd say no. I hope you do too."

I've never suggested parents shouldn't parent; I've merely argued that there should be no government law outlawing our kids from having cute bunny rabbit pets!

Seeing as he gave an example of things happening exactly as they should happen, I'm not sure if there's anything left to discuss. Other than to tell you you're a terrible person for hating bunny rabbits and trying to deprive kids of them!

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: 'It's 100 Percent Beef': Company on Defensive as It Closes Plants

Yes, so far in this case I was posting what should have happened and it has. That is not to say the government does not have its eye on this and might look for a moment to step in. I am saying they shouldn't. In so many cases they interfere in situations they do not have any rights to do so and negatively effect what would have worked itself out in the end.

Solis - #7872

Re: 'It's 100 Percent Beef': Company on Defensive as It Closes Plants

"When they surrender decision-making power to government, government makes much worse decisions and makes them for everybody."

"If you disagree, you are wrong."

...at least you are not the government...

I give your invention the worst score imaginable. An A minus MINUS!
~Wornstrum~

16 (edited by ~Wornstrum~ 28-Mar-2012 14:20:07)

Re: 'It's 100 Percent Beef': Company on Defensive as It Closes Plants

Also, that article has nothing on government intervention...that is nothing more than corporations following consumer trends (which you point out is how it should be)...the USDA approved it, so I do not see how the government is interferring unless the USDA has changed their decision...

EDIT: Ooops, I see this was already pointed out (my mistake...left the topic open awhile before reading tongue)

I give your invention the worst score imaginable. An A minus MINUS!
~Wornstrum~

Re: 'It's 100 Percent Beef': Company on Defensive as It Closes Plants

@V.Kemp,

> Simon, what's the point of your methhead example? 

Let's go back a step. You said idiots should be allowed to do as they wish because they're doing it to themselves. I pointed out that an individual may make decisions only for themselves, but those decisions can have consequences on the rest of society. I then backed up that point with an economic analysis, albeit not a good one.

> Government can't stop idiots from using meth

Government may not stop meth usage completely, but they can certainly decrease the number of users.

> they can only waste money, decreasing economic growth even more than the methhead already does.

I don't know of any government campaigns to make any judgement.

> Are you changing positions? Because your example backs up my point.

The only thing I changed is a pair of pants.

> And laws against theft and murder are good too.

Good, we agree.

> That some laws are necessary and just doesn't justify limitless federal power.

Noone said the government should have limitless power. Our government has not claimed or executed 'unlimited' powers.

> We're talking about schools having food police for kids, laws effecting adults and their own bodies

As you pointed out, some are necessary and good.

> I've never suggested parents shouldn't parent; I've merely argued that there should be no government law outlawing our kids from having cute bunny rabbit pets!

Agreed.

> Seeing as he gave an example of things happening exactly as they should happen, I'm not sure if there's anything left to discuss. Other than to tell you you're a terrible person for hating bunny rabbits and trying to deprive kids of them!

Agreed, but maybe not the second part.

Brother Simon, Keeper of Ages, Defender of Faith.
~ ☭ Fokker

Re: 'It's 100 Percent Beef': Company on Defensive as It Closes Plants

It's a hit peice by anti-meat types.


It's a product hundreds of millions have eaten trillions of times.



Beef, it's what's for dinner!

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

19 (edited by V.Kemp 29-Mar-2012 06:59:03)

Re: 'It's 100 Percent Beef': Company on Defensive as It Closes Plants

Simon:
"You said idiots should be allowed to do as they wish because they're doing it to themselves. I pointed out that an individual may make decisions only for themselves, but those decisions can have consequences on the rest of society."

In which case they're not just doing it to themselves, therefore those are clearly not the cases I was referring to. tongue If you're arguing that individuals should be subject to government authority in any action which the government deems necessary, because it affects overall economic output/taxes, then you're arguing for slavery. Wow. Just wow.

"Government may not stop meth usage completely, but they can certainly decrease the number of users. "

Do you have evidence of this? Everywhere drugs are legalized the rate of usage hardly changes. This suggests that the laws aren't having any significant impact on use. Do you have evidence to suggest otherwise?

"I don't know of any government campaigns to make any judgement."

In the US there's a "war on drugs." In all nations where drugs are illegal, money is spent policing and prosecuting drug users/movers/sellers. These things cost money. A lot of money.

"Noone said the government should have limitless power. Our government has not claimed or executed 'unlimited' powers."

When you've accepted allowing them to make decisions for you, even decisions which affect nobody but you, you've granted them unlimited powers. Where does their power stop? If you've already accepted them as a parent/babysitter, capable of making better decisions for you than you can make for yourself, where can you draw the line? Can't they obviously decide the line better than you, just as you concede they can with health and other matters?

You said our government has not claimed "unlimited" powers. Where have they drawn the line, then? If they haven't stated where they draw the line, considering that they already grossly and explicitly violate the Constitution every day, where are their powers limited? What are the limits you claim exist?

When you admit someone is smarter and more competent than you and should have virtually limitless authority over you, you have a hard time arguing there should be limits later when they reach for an amount of power you object to.

"As you pointed out, some are necessary and good."

No: I referred specifically to actions which affect other people directly.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]