1 (edited by Justinian I 21-Mar-2012 14:57:47)

Re: Privatize Marriage

I love free-markets, and strongly believe that monopolies are evil. So why should marriage be the exception? I think we should privatize marriage. This means ending the state-monopoly on marriage, and getting the government out of our lives for good. Instead, couples would draft their own marriage contract that, within some limitations, would be enforced by the courts like any other business contract or partnership.

The result would be that the gay marriage debate would become irrelevant, and more fluid arrangements suiting the respective parties would be possible. For example, more than two people could enter the contract. Moreover, it would end unfair treatment that married couples receive, and would better cater to individual preferences. Home makers, for example, could easily demand an alimony as compensation for putting their careers on a back burner.

Finally, such a system would benefit women and the gene pool. With more possibilities, multiple women could marry a wealthy man and enjoy legal protections suiting their individual preferences. This would mean that, since wealthier men tend to be more intelligent, the market would improve the gene pool since women would have incentive to marry them.

Re: Privatize Marriage

Sounds like someone wants to get multiple wives wink

But if you think about this same system, the wealthy man would always demand that the women get nothing upon seperation (since the wealthy man is the one with the power). Also, just because a wealthy man has multiple wives, it does not mean that he will want more children than he originally planned to have with one (ie. He will still think that he is only able to support 2 children, which he will not change simply because there are 3 women). Furthermore, without a centralised system, how do you expect individual contracts to be drawn up and legally binding? You are thinking that the system would work to protect every party, but I think it could be easily abused to protect an individual whilst leaving the other out to dry.

I give your invention the worst score imaginable. An A minus MINUS!
~Wornstrum~

3 (edited by Justinian I 21-Mar-2012 16:54:12)

Re: Privatize Marriage

Worn,

I don't know of many men who wouldn't want multiple wives smile.

Although it's likely that wealthy men would enjoy the most competition from women because of their market value, women would still be able to freely participate in the marketplace.  Unlike many polygamous societies among religious communities and throughout history, the legal system would prevent women from being bartered and sold by the man who "owned her." Women would be guaranteed the legal right to negotiate, terminate, and choose the contracts they entered.

Secondly, legal protections would provide women with options to avoid an exploitative contract. First, the right to negotiate, enter and terminate would allow a woman to negotiate some kind of insurance and/or exit if the arrangement did not suit her needs. Additionally, there would be legal protections against certain kinds of exploitative contractual conditions, as there are today, to prevent a party from being taken advantage of due to hardship or mental disability (temporary or not). Second, the legal right to participate in the economy would allow women to invest in their own careers and assets, providing them with the freedom to exit a bad contract. Third, because many men would lose out, assuming that this system would have a tendency to favor polygamy, women would also receive a lot of competition. Four, polygamy would not be the only possible arrangement. Parties could still enter monogamous contracts, and I think a polyamorous arrangement including multiple men and women in the same marriage might become popular. So while I agree with you that wealthy men would likely have more market power, I think you are exaggerating the extent women might be exploited by neglecting many legal and market conditions.

Now, to your question about reproduction and making marriage contracts legally binding. With respect to reproduction, it seems your question has more to do with finances. Moreover, it also seems you are assuming that men would necessarily be the sole income earner. A man earning $200,000 USD as a small business owner may be in a situation you described, but it would be in the interest of all parties if some of the wives worked. For example, the living standard of two couples earning $50,000 improves (assuming no financial infidelity) if they pool their resources. Since women can participate in the economy, marriages with more than two parties would likely have more than one member working. This could be beneficial too, as your hypothetical family could have 1 working man, 2 working women, and 1 woman who stays home to care for the children. If you think about it, that's more efficient than the nuclear, monogamous family. Additionally, it is better for the environment. With respect to making marriage contracts legally binding, I don't see why this is a problem. The government can treat marriages just like it does any other business contract.

Re: Privatize Marriage

agreed

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Re: Privatize Marriage

But you are ordered by the federal courts to embrace gay marriage. So what are the practical steps to achieve your vision?  Seems like a copout to let the liberals win without tainting yourself by aligning with the social conservatives.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Privatize Marriage

What do you do with the left over bachelor males?

Brother Simon, Keeper of Ages, Defender of Faith.
~ ☭ Fokker

7 (edited by Justinian I 22-Mar-2012 03:38:36)

Re: Privatize Marriage

> Simon wrote:

> What do you do with the left over bachelor males?

I think the usual solution is to send them to war. Alternatively, there is prostitution.

Re: Privatize Marriage

Justinian I wrote:

Worn,

I don't know of many men who wouldn't want multiple wives smile.

Worst idea ever. Have you ever been married? 1 is plenty enough.

Modestus Experitus

Arby: A very strict mod, reminds me of a fat redneck who drives a truck around all day with a beer in one hand. I hated this guy at the start, however, I played a round in PW with him where he went as an anonymous player. Our fam got smashed up and everyone pretty much left. Arby stayed around and helped out the remaining family. At the end of the round he revealed himself.... My views on him have changed since. Your a good guy.....

Re: Privatize Marriage

Arby,

If marriage is such a burden for you, then why don't you get divorced?

Re: Privatize Marriage

> Justinian I wrote:

> Arby,

If marriage is such a burden for you, then why don't you get divorced?



He is divorced.  tongue

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Privatize Marriage

"I think the usual solution is to send them to war. Alternatively, there is prostitution."

For this to work you would need near-constant wars with high casualties. Forget the human cost, few countries, if any, can sustain the financial cost.

Prostitution can only work if you assume sex is the only thing bachelor males seek. This is clearly false. But assuming it is, sex must dirt cheap to cater to the poor man. If sex is expensive, the poor man can't afford it, and the better off might as well enter into one of your contracts.

You also mentioned that 1-male-multiple-female relationships can improve the gene pool. Why do we assume it's 1-male-multiple-female? There are many well off females and they can enter contracts with multiple men. Women tend to be more selective for mates and well off women tend to have fewer children. Thus, a 1-female-multiple-male scenario would actually regress the gene pool.

Brother Simon, Keeper of Ages, Defender of Faith.
~ ☭ Fokker

Re: Privatize Marriage

Simon,

Well it's not really relevant, since the less attractive women could easily cater to the lower class men.

One woman could potentially contract with multiple men, but it's unlikely. There are few cases of polyandrous societies, and of those that are it's between two brothers and one wife. I mean, would you really be willing to be Paris Hilton's 100th husband? I'd rather be single, and I think most men would agree.

Re: Privatize Marriage

> Arby3 wrote:

>

Justinian I wrote:

Worn,

I don't know of many men who wouldn't want multiple wives smile.

Worst idea ever. Have you ever been married? 1 is plenty enough.


Hehehe, that was my first thought...

I give your invention the worst score imaginable. An A minus MINUS!
~Wornstrum~

Re: Privatize Marriage

"Since women can participate in the economy, marriages with more than two parties would likely have more than one member working. This could be beneficial too, as your hypothetical family could have 1 working man, 2 working women, and 1 woman who stays home to care for the children. If you think about it, that's more efficient than the nuclear, monogamous family. Additionally, it is better for the environment. With respect to making marriage contracts legally binding, I don't see why this is a problem. The government can treat marriages just like it does any other business contract."

I did think of that, but also, it sounds like a marriage becomes a group thing, all the women pool their money together? NO! Otherwise, you wouldn't just be marrying one man (or many men for that matter), you would be marrying their wives too. If you think there are problems with married couples fighting now, add in more spouses and see where that gets ya? tongue

I give your invention the worst score imaginable. An A minus MINUS!
~Wornstrum~

Re: Privatize Marriage

"One woman could potentially contract with multiple men, but it's unlikely."

True, as a result of millennia of social attitude.

That's not to say, however, that the attitude will remain forever, especially in your hypothetical world. Your statement: "I'd rather be single, and I think most men would agree." lends some credence to that, since being single will decrease the likelihood of your having children.

Brother Simon, Keeper of Ages, Defender of Faith.
~ ☭ Fokker

Re: Privatize Marriage

Being single doesn't reduce your odds of having children. In fact, with higher rates of multiple partners, it increases the chance.


And yes, I am divorced lol. Turns out I married a whore in sheeps clothing.

Modestus Experitus

Arby: A very strict mod, reminds me of a fat redneck who drives a truck around all day with a beer in one hand. I hated this guy at the start, however, I played a round in PW with him where he went as an anonymous player. Our fam got smashed up and everyone pretty much left. Arby stayed around and helped out the remaining family. At the end of the round he revealed himself.... My views on him have changed since. Your a good guy.....

Re: Privatize Marriage

> Arby3 wrote:

>And yes, I am divorced lol. Turns out I married a whore in sheeps clothing.

The inner Australian wants to make a kiwi joke...but I will refrain as much as I can...

I give your invention the worst score imaginable. An A minus MINUS!
~Wornstrum~

Re: Privatize Marriage

http://singleparents.about.com/od/legalissues/p/portrait.htm

"U.S. Census Bureau in November, 2009, there are approximately 13.7 million single parents in the United States today, and those parents are responsible for raising 21.8 million children"

"Approximately 84% of custodial parents are mothers"

Thus 21.8 / ( 13.7*0.84) = 1.89 children per woman. Compared to 2.05 children per woman in the general US population. So yes, being single could mean fewer children, thus decreased likelihood of having children. Although my statement might be better to say "more likelihood of having fewer children"; your pick.

"And yes, I am divorced lol. Turns out I married a whore in sheeps clothing."

Sorry to hear that. Not surprising considering studies done in Iceland and the UK showed that many many people do not have the father they think they have.

Brother Simon, Keeper of Ages, Defender of Faith.
~ ☭ Fokker

Re: Privatize Marriage

a few problems:
1 the society would become dominantly female if you send away to many man. Most societies with an unhealthy mix of female/male population tend to be very inefficient.
2 as someone addressed before, the gene pool will become smaller. Deseases will strike.
3 families will become to large. Clan wars will erupt as in the old days. There will be less freedom for the youth to decide what to do with their life.

20 (edited by V.Kemp 23-Mar-2012 10:57:00)

Re: Privatize Marriage

Arby3:
"Turns out I married a whore in sheeps clothing."

You thought you married a sheep? That's a whole other set of dysfunction.

~Wornstrum~:

I've been making fun of an Aussie friend for years, calling him a sheep [herder]. (he happened to be born in NZ) Are you saying I randomly hit a nerve with a kiwi stereotype?! I just picked something really nasty and obscene at random. I had no idea.

To everyone else:

What are you on? You're writing as if removing government from marriage 100% or replacing it with some private institutions (or not) would have more than a tiny impact on human behavior.

People already do whatever they want now. They have same-sex partners. They have sex [and children] with multiple partners. The current government institution isn't having any significant impact on human behavior.

Sure, I wouldn't mind government being out of it so I could unofficially marry both my wives (and hopefully a third some day), but let's be honest: I'm already living with, supporting, and having kids with both of them already.

Speaking as if government is somehow restricting behavior right now is downright silly. Sure, it'd be convenient and just to change a few things, but let's not act like it'd radically alter the gender balance or gene mixing. There are already male and female whores. No government action is going to significantly increase/decrease their numbers.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Privatize Marriage

Arby3:
"Turns out I married a whore in sheeps clothing."

You thought you married a sheep? That's a whole other set of dysfunction.

~Wornstrum~:

I've been making fun of an Aussie friend for years, calling him a sheep [herder]. (he happened to be born in NZ) Are you saying I randomly hit a nerve with a kiwi stereotype?! I just picked something really nasty and obscene at random. I had no idea.


Not really a random nerve, but aussies tease kiwi's all the time about "sheep [herding]". It doesn't really strike a nerve, just more friendly rivalry...it is all based on a rumour/fact (I am not sure what) that there were more sheep than people in NZ, and I am sure you can see how the jokes evolved...

I give your invention the worst score imaginable. An A minus MINUS!
~Wornstrum~

Re: Privatize Marriage

Okay, everyone is focusing on the polygamy option way too much. That isn't my central point, although I argued rational women may pursue it. My central point was that marriage is biased and too constrictive for the needs of consumers. By treating marriage as a business contract, more fluid arrangements would be possible. Moreover, I think many such arrangements, like polygamy, should be permitted if it works for the parties involved.

Worn,

Polygamy may not work for most people or even for you, but does that make it right to prohibit such an arrangement for those it does work for?

Re: Privatize Marriage

> Justinian I wrote:

> Simon,

Well it's not really relevant, since the less attractive women could easily cater to the lower class men.

One woman could potentially contract with multiple men, but it's unlikely. There are few cases of polyandrous societies, and of those that are it's between two brothers and one wife. I mean, would you really be willing to be Paris Hilton's 100th husband? I'd rather be single, and I think most men would agree.

Paris Hilton's ? no....

Jessica Alba's? of course i would!

Solis - #7872

Re: Privatize Marriage

Also, just to point out...the country was created and built on religious beliefs. Now, you may not agree with it having been that way but it does not change the fact that it was. And according to the religion this country was based on, having multiple spouses is wrong.

So getting an entire country to agree to completely change what is still the majority belief is near impossible...therefore you are wasting your time! cheers

Solis - #7872

Re: Privatize Marriage

The Riddler
"And according to the religion this country was based on, having multiple spouses is wrong."

This is not a core belief of Christianity. Christianity is about wisdom, righteousness, and most importantly, love. Christianity is about loving and setting an example, not demanding others live by your standards.

I can't even find any information about marriage laws enacted or supported by Founders of this great nation or any before the 19th century. They were too busy mutilating people over sodomy and bestiality.

Regardless, we can all accept that you only want to limit my wives because you're jealous of my good looks, high income, sharp wit, and questionable intelligence which allows me to gain and maintain these relationships with more beautiful women! tongue

[I wish I could obey forum rules]