0rion,

I should amend my statement about no labor laws. I think we should eliminate the labor laws that explicitly impose barriers to competition, although I am in favor of those that impose a minimum on workplace safety etc.

As for minimum wages, again, I fail to see how it benefits workers. It increases unemployment, which increases competition for fewer jobs. That means the people who are employed have to do more work to produce the same. If anything, a minimum wage increases stress. How is that good for welfare?

> Justinian I wrote:

> As for minimum wages, again, I fail to see how it benefits workers. It increases unemployment, which increases competition for fewer jobs. That means the people who are employed have to do more work to produce the same. If anything, a minimum wage increases stress. How is that good for welfare?

I'm no expert in American economy so I could be saying things that do not apply completely to American situation, but...

When you take out Minimum wages you'll create a situation in which lower wages will drop, right? Normal and seems harmless. It does make people less motivated to search a job. This because goverment pays people to not work as well Makes the diffference too little.. This means people will chose to stay at home and take care of household more often, or just do nothing so whatever. Minimum wages should be set like that that it's worth to go to work but it does not make the companies back down on hiring people. This is the current Situation in Belgium..

I do understand its not everywhere like that.

Yet..

Without both (getting paid to not work/no minimum wages) companies will just take misadvantage of the situation. Ofcourse you can say it'll eventually all be allright because of natural balance (like a price of a product), still it'll do more damage than you clearly assume. Some people will have to accept whatever a company decides to give. Therefore mimimum wages are necessary.. but they shouldnt be set too high.

Xeno,

Sing along. "Scarcity, oh scarcity..."

Flint,

When I lived in WA, I was living comfortably making $8.50 (minimum wage there) an hour with three room mates . Hell, I typically saved 60% of my income, and that was while I spent somewhat imprudently.

I would have pushed the limits of my income if I lived alone, but its preposterous to say people have a right to live alone. Live with others if you can't afford it!

Zarf,

$17,000 is still "poor," and the fact I was able to save that percentage shows just how easy it is to live comfortably with room mates.

On the national minimum wage of $7.25, I would have made $15,000 a year. With three room mates working, I could have easily saved $7,000 in one year.

"Rent is $700"

OMG What age are we living in, the Feudal era?  Rent?  Are you kidding me?  This is supposed to be the 21st century, Einstein.  Nobody in their right mind should pay rent.  Rent.  Pfft. 

"Cannot afford stuff? Work a second job"

Lol.  Their aren't first jobs, let alone second jobs.  Want to know why, Einstein? BECAUSE PEOPLE AREN'T BUYING STUFF

"Point is... you can survive"

Lol.  Are you kidding me?  Subsistence labor?  That is what we have engineered all these gizmos for?  This is what we fought for when we sent soldiers off to war?  This is why we go through 22-25 years of university? To SURVIVE on a minimum wage job?  To commute 2 hours a day, spending most of our disposable income on gas and cigarettes?

You've GOT to be kidding me.

We should have a society we would WANT to fight to protect; now, we don't, thanks to neo-malthusianism / Regan economics

Simon, a.k.a. Fokker

They are talking about survival.  This is the 21st century.  This should not even be a matter of contention.  Our ancestors did not establish our countries, fight wars, struggle, build roads, dams, grids, schools, universities, airplanes, and spacecraft, for it to be the common expectation that people would need to SUBSIST on minimum wage jobs, renting, dying old and broke.

I never claimed it took 50k / a year to survive.  What I am said is 50k / year is the minimum LIVEABLE wage, as in with 50k / year one can begin to think about actually LIVING: that is OWNING their home rather than having to rent it; starting a family; saving / investing for their child's education and their retirement; and thereby being able to be responsible adults.

Anything less is unfeasible.

I am not Fokker.

This is quoting you from post #30 "minimum wage is not a liveable wage". There is no question on what "liveable" means. If you are suggesting minimum wage does not provide a "quality" life (I agree btw), then that should be clear.

"This should not even be a matter of contention."

I put "quality" in quotes because it's clear we have different ideas on what that is too. In the United States, it is very common to rent. I simply cannot see how a renter is in any way less living than a homeowner.

seriiously 10-20 $ for a kilo of bananas? thats ridicoulus i mean so ridicoulus theres no way i will believe it

"bananas"

Yeah, most banana's are produced in northern areas of Australia. Also, I should point out that the area will always be hit by cyclones every year, which do cause major damage to crops. If it is a bad year (which recently, it has been bad), most of the produce is wiped out, which means supply drops, demand doesn't drop as much, and BOOM! $20 a kilo...when I was checking for class, I saw banana's online at Woolworths for $2.50 EACH...

Also, Perth is the furthest city in the world from any other city. Its supply lines aren't exactly the best, and most produce is actually local. Since Perth is too far south to grow bananas, they get shipped from Canarvan, and when that town is hit by bad weather, they get imported from Queensland. There are no train lines from Queensland to Perth directly, there are no direct roads (the middle of the country is mostly just mine sites, and some of the interior roads in Western Australia aren't even paved), so transport from there will most likely go through Sydney. I also think they they do not use trains to move cargo, but I do believe that most cargo is moved by sea (very slow transportation, especially with the docks in Perth).

Perth is a city where you get nothing special...seriously, it was almost impossible for me to find decent coconuts...and even in the entertainment field, we get few music artists or celebrity visits, we had the Commonwealth Games once I think, and even in sports, we get very little in Perth (every year, we get 1 ICC cricket match, and never any final matches of any sports, except maybe quarter finals in AFL, where Melbourne gets a few AFL matches every week).

The isolation of Perth is the reason it is one of the more expensive cities to live.

"Who do you work for Wornstrum?"

Well, I have changed jobs a few times. I started out working in hospitality, barman or waiter, which was good pay considering the hours I put in (my record was almost 16 hours without a break...I also wanna point out I got paid by the hour, up to $25 an hour normal pay, and then bonus pay for holidays ). Whilst I was in hospitality, I was also a student, studying Network Engineering, and when I finished I went into that industry...which was tech support...I am so embarrased! Anyway, was earning $38k working on phones, so that didn't last long, and I quit that to go back to studying, which is when I started my Chinese and International Relations degree. I worked back in hospitality at the point, earning $23 an hour.

"I take that is from the barman/waiter position? Did it include tip?"

Yeah, barman and waiter. I was getting $25 because I was doing the bar managers job (whilst they looked for another manager to replace the old one). I was later offered the job, but turned it down. Also, was getting $25 as a waiter because I was still doing bar work at the same time. I was one of the oldest staff members (hospitality goes through staff very quickly) and also rather versitile. I would even work 7 days a week at one point (it sucked so much, study in the day, work at night, never had a day off...I would also only get 2-3 hours a night sleep, and went that way for months until I feel asleep behind the wheel of my car and slammed into the back of another car...good times).

This did not include tips, but I would only get tips as a waiter, and could take away $0 - $100+ in a night (Australia doesn't have a tipping culture, but you can get a good run...another waiter would also compare tips, so we always had a running competition ).

"Either way that sure beats $38k tech support."

Well the great thing about tech support was, I worked the graveyard shift, so also get another 20% bonus, so that went up to almost $46k a year, and because of the hours, all I did was work and play WoW which mean't I saved so much money. At one point, I had almost $15k sitting in a bank from half a year of saving...I did blow all that in less than a month (holiday, new entertainment system, etc )