"You're asking for people to make a stance on a question which, empirically, must be answered on a case by case basis."

I am asking people to answer this question as per their case; according to their ideals, according to their individual moral precepts: I am asking them to tell me whether or not they would kill for their country and, if so, how they justify doing so.

"Soldiers cannot possibly be expected to use this as an analysis before signing up when the country is not at war, primarily because since the possible opponent is unknown, a proper calculation cannot be made."

Would-be soldiers can ask themselves if the ideals and values for which their country would send them to fight in the event those ideals and values were threatened are ideals and values actually practiced in their country for real, or just a soundbite used in military recruiting commercials.

> xeno syndicated wrote:

> "You're asking for people to make a stance on a question which, empirically, must be answered on a case by case basis."

I am asking people to answer this question as per their case; according to their ideals, according to their individual moral precepts: I am asking them to tell me whether or not they would kill for their country and, if so, how they justify doing so.

But, by your own explanation, the issue requires the inividual to make a cost-benefit analysis of fighting vs. not fighting against a threat.  How can the calculation be made without asking who the threat is?  Or, rather, are you asking people to apply this to a specific case (i.e., asking if we would be willing to fight against Iran, for example).

> "Soldiers cannot possibly be expected to use this as an analysis before signing up when the country is not at war, primarily because since the possible opponent is unknown, a proper calculation cannot be made."

Would-be soldiers can ask themselves if the ideals and values for which their country would send them to fight in the event those ideals and values were threatened are ideals and values actually practiced in their country for real, or just a soundbite used in military recruiting commercials.

Agreed.  That being said, this only answers part 1 of your 3 parts of analyzing a just war (determining whether your nation has values worthy of defending).  So although some determination is made, it cannot possibly be a complete analysis (the exception to this is if the soldier's nation is either at war or preparing for war with another nation, because the threat can be identified).

"
But, by your own explanation, the issue requires the inividual to make a cost-benefit analysis of fighting vs. not fighting against a threat"

No, they don't, not for prerequisite #1 is your country free to begin with?

"That being said, this only answers part 1 of your 3 parts of analyzing a just war "
Alright, let's look at Iran, then.  If you were drafted tomorrow to go to war against Iran, would you feel that Iran would have the capability and the intent of rendering your country unfree?  Do you feel they would have the intent and capacity to occupy and enslave your people?

""Prove it"? What am I, your dog?"

Wow.  I didn't mean any insult by asking to back up your assertion that your country is a free country. 

I wonder, what is it about your country that makes it free and what is it about your country's level of freedom that you would feel justified to kill to preserve it?

"Also depended on who are we fighting, what are the reasons for the war? I can debate with myself the reasons for joining the military, but once I've made that choice, justification goes out of the window, it doesn't matter."

When a draft is being instituted, there are 3 options:  Which would have been the best choice had you been drafted by the Nazis while Netherlands was occupied?

Volunteer to join the Nazis
Wait and allow yourself to be drafted by the Nazis
Evade the Nazi draft and hide out somewhere
Evade the draft and join the resistance against the Nazis

Likewise, if your country were to go to war today against, say, oh, I don't know, Iran which would be the best choice:
Volunteer to join the military?
Wait and allow yourself to be drafted?
Evade the draft and hide out somewhere?
Evade the draft and join the anti-war resistance movement?

1. Evade and hide.
If I was resistance material I'd already be a part of it. (Very black and white question... Will the Nazi's kill my family if I evade the draft? If so, I'd wait to be drafted etc...)

2. Wait and allow myself to be drafted.
If, for some ridiculous reason, Iranian troops are at 'the border', I'd volunteer.

I wouldn't enlist because of many reasons:
Belgian army s****.
Belgian gov s**** as well.
Belgian gov system s****.
proly the reason for war s****.
I value my life
Its to hot for me in Congo
My french is bad

And many many many more reasons.

"If I lived in US, I wouldn't enlist under the current gov. I'd probably lead the rebellion if things got worse."

I have noticed sentiment to be quite pervasive in many countries, in particular in those countries (like Belgium) where you would not expect to find much of it.  What is it about the system (a system which is becoming more or less the same from one country to another with the spread of globalization) that has resulted in the pervasive sentiment that the system is not a system worth killing to protect?

xeno syndicated, it's two things:

First, our leaders are absolute trash (because a majority of the electorate are trash). I wouldn't have a problem fighting under Washington or Jefferson. But Obama, or Bush before him? No thanks. I don't trust them as far as I can punt them.

Second, our government has gone from one charged with protecting our freedoms (Bill of Rights, limited powers granted) to one filled with communist ideologues like Obama whose goal is to go around/ignore the Constitution as much as possible in order to expand government power as much as possible. The Constitution which was the bases for the most free and wealthy country the world has ever known I find worth defending, killing, and dying for. The decisions of communist ideologues I do not.

hahahahaha

> xeno syndicated wrote:
> In the event you were drafted to serve during wartime in your nation's military,
> would you be willing to kill for your country, yes or no?  State your reasons why or why not.

Definetly no.
In my time we still had a draft here, thus I rejected the military service and did some kind of civil service.

I am no pacifist but if I kill I surely want to decide on my own whom and why. Nobody orders me to kill anybody for whatever stupid reasons.

Just imagine half of the people in this forum in rank above you... yeah, that's a reason not to go to the military, isn't it?