The F-35's are the JSFs...

"it makes up for that by the best of the best"

big words for a nation whose navy is intensely cooperating with the belgian navy

They're testing to see what kind of paintball will stick to an American jet in flight.

why not the VTOL versions?

Over priced mass produced shit boxes...

Ok, that is harsh, they are not bad, but I don't get why half the nations in this programme (Australia and the mainland European allies especially) are in it.

I mean, lets look at it, we have here a budget version of the F-22, the best air to air fighter out there. The JSF is slower, smaller, less stealthy than the F-22, and has a shorter range to boot.

So who does it benifit? Take mainland Europe for instance, why choose this over the Eurofighter? it is more expensive, similar performance, half arsed stealth that is useless against the Russians, and to use it in its marketed "close air support" you'd have to mount weapons on the wings anyway, making the stealth aspect useless.

For Australia, or nearest possible threat hasn't got the legs to support the most basic form of airforce (plus Indonesia is a democracy and friends of ours), the local failed states and current international deployments have no radar at all, and china is so far away that they threaten us by air and sea only (and we'd see them before they get here) what we need is a big long range high performance interceptor that does away with pretensions of stealth but simply out maneuvers and out ranges the Russians and Chinese, and modern versions of the F-111 and submarines to bomb Jakarta if needed.

As I said, the JSF is not a bad plane, but the only ones who needed are nations that can already support a carrier based version or need a stealthy bomber to hit those pesky Middle Eastern and African nations, the UK, Turkey, and Israel comes to mind...

But then again, I'm no defense expert, just my two cents

Don't interpret me as belittling the efforts of the Netherlands et al.

There are other planes out there than have the multi role aspect to them, the Eurofighter, F-15, and Super Hornets come to mind. But does the extra millions on the price tag for crappy stealth and no possibility of local jobs on the F-35 make it worth it?

If you can convince me that the RNAF needs the full stealth to make first strike missions in hostile territory unilaterally, then I will change my mind, but if it only going to be used as a part of a coalition force and a full complement air to ground weapons are needed, the necessity to store bombs on the wings nullify the stealthy nature of the plane and ou are better off spending money on cheaper planes of similar performance, and such planes are already available.

But with a VTOL capable air combat/ ground support vehicle, the Netherlands wouldn't NEED full-size carriers to project force.   You could use helicopter carriers or build baby escort carriers.  But I see this is still in testing stages.

I admit the JSF is geared towards the bizarre needs of the US coldwar military, so other countries have to look hard to see if it matches their requirements.   

We have a normal Air Force that emphasizes control of the skies, flying from land bases.
We have the world's largest naval aviation service that has its own worries about exposure to salt water, fuel economy, ease of repair in the middle of an ocean, etc.
We have the world's largest amphibious expeditionary force that prides itself on being practically autonomous, and has its own combat aviation service because the Air Force and Navy aviators act like learning how to drop bombs in front of, but not onto Marine infantry, is time wasted from their REAL missions.

So we have the F-35, which can be modded to fit everybody in our military.  Whether that works for you I don't know.  I'm surprised because I thought the VTOL, naval aviation role was THE one category where the F-35 beat out the Eurofighter hands down.    You could support your peacekeepers with your own Navy without bartering for a Nimitz-class carrier or the DeGaulle.

The Australian federal government under the liberal party rushed into buying these pieces of you know what, the new labor government however knows what theyre doing and i dont think Australia will be getting any if we can get out it!

Some good points, BiefstukFriet, and I do appreciate the thought process behind what the RNAF has in mind for such a plane, and if the planed economic benefits go flow through, that would be great

But, I still cannot see f-35s being used as a part of a multinational first strike force when there are far stealthier, and faster options to choose from. If the Netherlands were to take unilateral actions against other nations, or were a part of a European military force that is independent of the United States, or even the carrier variant as Yell put it, then the F-35 would be a good choice, but under current circumstances, it is over priced and
has features that are superfluous when used as a ground attach craft with externally mounted weapons.

On Australia's purchase:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canberra_class_large_amphibious_ship

The only thing that hesitates me from liking the Australia procurement plan is that we will be not getting the VTOL version either, and in that light lacks the range from the mainland to be an effective anti air deterrent.

Also, the F-35s will be replacing our F-111s, which are (not were) the best fighter size bombers around when it comes to range, speed, and payload. I don't see why we just by the license for the F-111 and build a hundred more with modern avionics because they are the best non stealth bombers around and the F-35s will in no way be an adequate replacement.

> Little Paul wrote:

> thx bief. We stay friends forever.

I however doubt the effectiveness of such small armies. The netherlands is a big dif with belgium perhabs but still, you depend completely on other nations in the event of an attack. Better have a EU army altogether starting with a few nations and maybe one day even start a EU policeforce. <

Best buds 4 life.

The Netherlands military is effective at the roles it has set for itself, as can be seen in Afghanistan. Although I think there is room for improvement, especially when it comes to anti resurrection. But we're getting there and Afghanistan has been a very good proving ground, our soldiers are getting experience very few other European armies have had the chance to get. Our biggest Achilles heel I think is funding.

Also, personally my preference goes to a stronger cooperation with the Anglo Saksons; USA, Canada, Australia etc.