26 (edited by Little Paul 02-Feb-2012 18:49:01)

Re: Highspeed debt!

"Keep moving those goalposts."
It's preferred to reply or state an argument but that's up to you.

"I'm not the one who made the comparison, little paul did."
I said Obama had a bigger part in US debt. Then you made the comparison as well. It also doesn't change the fact Obama has not even a 4 year term and bush a full 8 year.

"I disputed his claim and provided information to the contrary. Mission accomplished."
Its a flawed source dating till the end of july, and we are 2/2012. You did not yet reply to my post so I dispute the accomplished part. tongue

"Since there is no point in citing sources, I'm not going to bother looking for one,"
It would provide you with an argument that denies my claim so it would be the normal thing to do.

If you have a debt of -5 and borrow 5, its better having a debt 0 and borrow 8 right? Obama had to deal accordingly and still he borrowed more each year as bush ever did.

Re: Highspeed debt!

not really my thing but isn't GWB responsible for some of the outrageous tax cut's in effect that obama is trying to undo but the republicans are defending?

that's like

GWB lighting a fuse, republicans protecting the fuse till it reaches the bomb and then blaming obama for letting it go off during his term.



tax in America to me is explained like an upside down world...


hypothetically:

joe is an average america and earns  30k

he pays 33% taxes and is left with 20k


jack is a milionaire and earns   300k

he pays 25% taxes and is left with 225k


and somehow republicans find this good?



a more viable system is the other way around no?


30k 25% taxes:   22.5k left for average joe( a bit more to live with)

300k 33%taxes:  200k left( a bit less but most people can live of off 200k

taxes gathered:  107.5k as opposed to   95k


and joe has more money so he can spend more--> there are more joe's with average income then there are jack's with large income
and jack still has enought to spend stuff.



what I'm trying to say is: you cant blame Obama for this, you can't blame GWB for this, you cant blame republicans and you can't blame democrats. cause every single one is responsible for a tiny piece off the problems you're in right now. off course Obama is getting the blame cause he is holding the bomb when it goes off but people who actually think past: I'm a republican/democrat/capitalist/teaparty/whatever see taht it's person x that started the bomb, and everybody's just been passing it around.

Re: Highspeed debt!

Another example of a failed education right above.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Highspeed debt!

Why is it failed, Einstein?

Please provide us with an explanation of how the trickle down theory works if you are properly educated.

Maar doodslaan deed hij niet, want tussen droom en daad,
Staan wetten in de weg en praktische bezwaren,
En ook weemoedigheid, die niemand kan verklaren,
En die des avonds komt, wanneer men slapen gaat.

Re: Highspeed debt!

please dont ask for reason risingdown. Einstein is a republican. You're not suppost to ask further on mental illness

<@Nolio> Ilu was the man back in the day,he even made monkeywrench and arganon look good for half a round =p
<@iluvatar> it is my grandest achievement
<@Nolio> *half a round  =p
<@iluvatar> still
* Final_Doom is now known as Thanks_Iluvatar

Re: Highspeed debt!

the person making 300k is most likely reponsible for having a small business aswell, making possible those joe's get their income in the first place.
dont punish the people who take the risks and spend their own money into their companys twice.

Colorado: even in the 11/01 war i made more hits.
Colorado: 447 blow jobs.
Big Gary:  Only a fool cannot admit when he's wrong...
AW:    i love rim jobs
RisingDown: I know you do

Re: Highspeed debt!

1st off.

Net worth doesn't matter when it comes to federal taxes. If I made $1,000,000 ten years ago and $0.00 for the past 5 years, my tax debt over the past 5 years was $0. 

You can get socked for REALIZED gains in net worth, but I believe only when you cash out, since the dot.com crash ruined a lot of people with insane tax debts (peak value was spring, stock collapsed in fall, next April they were taxed on the HIGH value which they could never recapture or realize.)

2nd off.

When it comes to straight wage income, then bigger wage incomes have a higher rate.  Jack would pay more than Joe.

3rd off.

We distinguish between earning a salary, which is a more stable form of revenue, with capital gains income.  Capital gains taxes are lower because unlike salary they come after you risk an investment.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Highspeed debt!

4th.  If you do like Newt apparently did, and say " I own a Company worth $1 million, and MeCo. paid me $300k in salary to operate it, and it reaped an awesome $2 million in dividends which are NOT wage income but investment income to be taxed at 15% not 35%" then you get raped by the IRS as Newt apparently will be.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Highspeed debt!

> Little Paul wrote:

> "Keep moving those goalposts."
It's preferred to reply or state an argument but that's up to you.

"I'm not the one who made the comparison, little paul did."
I said Obama had a bigger part in US debt. Then you made the comparison as well. It also doesn't change the fact Obama has not even a 4 year term and bush a full 8 year.

"I disputed his claim and provided information to the contrary. Mission accomplished."
Its a flawed source dating till the end of july, and we are 2/2012. You did not yet reply to my post so I dispute the accomplished part. tongue

"Since there is no point in citing sources, I'm not going to bother looking for one,"
It would provide you with an argument that denies my claim so it would be the normal thing to do.

If you have a debt of -5 and borrow 5, its better having a debt 0 and borrow 8 right? Obama had to deal accordingly and still he borrowed more each year as bush ever did.

--------------------

You are taken statements responding to Dpenguins as though they are responding to you. Reading comprehension fail.

"See and Let Yourself Be Seen" - Robin Trower, Little Bit of Sympathy

"Do What Thou Wilt" - Aleister Crowley, Liber al Legis
**************************************************************
"The desperation in peoples eyes for a job to support themselves and/or their family... is palatable." -Einstein, http://www.imperialconflict.com/forum/v … ?id=157429 (post #18)

Re: Highspeed debt!

einstein: as I said not my thing because I'm not an american.

which a: means my education does not involve american government and stuff just as an american education doesn't involve knowing great deals of belgian politics, european countries etc
b: means that up until now american politics don't have that big an effect on me appart from the fact you're bankrupt to the bone if you actually had to pay your debt and the whole world would collapse


ow and C as usual you don't reply on the questions I ask. you just choose to ignore them like the good republican you are apearantly;


furthermore my post was more meant as a question and a general truth.


any person blaming 1 president for your situation is stupid. as most of you say: he's only been there for less then 4 years. and off course everything was a utopia before obama? no debt? no malcontent, no schandals/bad politics????


Obama has done things wrong but then again things he tries to do that sound right get blocked somewhere by voting.

there's even some law or something that democrats proposed that involved a tax cut and republicans who live by "tax cut's are good" voted against it( for an outsider this is: republicans voted against it because it was the democrats that proposed it...)


also someone made the point that GWB has encorperated all off his spendings on war in iraq in his debt he built up. so does that include the operating costs of troops after obama became president?


if you judge a president by the debts he's made during his term and not by the costs he's made with his laws well then.

if I were president I'd just invest and invest and spend and spend, but make it so that the negative effects of the spending only become appearant after my term is over.

you know: projects/bills that generate a profit on short term but screw you over in the long term but that would be my succesors problem?

Re: Highspeed debt!

I was commenting about hotdogbun... sorry.. very little sleep = bad typing.

Allow me to adress yours however

Say I decide to become a billionaire.

So I earn a billion dollars, paying a 35% rate.

Now say a billion is not enough, I want two.. but work is hard.

So I invest it into companies that have good ideas.

I pay 15% on this part.

The company with my billion pays 40%.

So for my 1 billion to become 2 billion the company I invested in needs to earn four billion with my one billion of investment for me to get two billion after all the taxes are done.



The idea is... you earned the money and paid taxes on it... you invest wisely... the investment will have taxes as well... there is no free ride. So your really paying a very high rate.





As for hotdogbun.... sheesh

If in 8 years I spent a $1 a year and earned nothing, and if the next guy spent $2 a year for four years and earned nothing... who is goiing in debt first?

He fails that math.

He also fails at logic.

He fails even for sanity

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Highspeed debt!

Risingdown I support trickle down economics.

As my post shows... nearly 50% of the profits went to Government via investing.

The canard that it is only 15% is a strong one.

Yes some dance with the market...

I already proposed a 24 hour waiting period after buying a stock to reduce that.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Highspeed debt!

I know you support it, that's pretty clear tongue

Can you explain however how it works exactly?

Maar doodslaan deed hij niet, want tussen droom en daad,
Staan wetten in de weg en praktische bezwaren,
En ook weemoedigheid, die niemand kan verklaren,
En die des avonds komt, wanneer men slapen gaat.

Re: Highspeed debt!

"If in 8 years I spent a $1 a year and earned nothing, and if the next guy spent $2 a year for four years and earned nothing... who is goiing in debt first?"

Clearly the first guy...although I am not sure what is going on here, so I will be quiet...

I give your invention the worst score imaginable. An A minus MINUS!
~Wornstrum~

Re: Highspeed debt!

First should we worst.... sigh,,, me need sleep

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Highspeed debt!

> Einstein wrote:

> "As for hotdogbun.... sheesh

"If in 8 years I spent a $1 a year and earned nothing, and if the next guy spent $2 a year for four years and earned nothing... who is goiing in debt first?"

Your example has no relevance to the claim that I was debunking, nor does it have any to the real world events you are trying to compare it to. The claim was that Obama placed us in more debt than Bush. That claim is false. Your irrelevant and unnecessary extrapolation does not change that.


"He fails that math.

He also fails at logic.

He fails even for sanity"

If you're going to make a personal attack, at least try to validate it with an example.

"See and Let Yourself Be Seen" - Robin Trower, Little Bit of Sympathy

"Do What Thou Wilt" - Aleister Crowley, Liber al Legis
**************************************************************
"The desperation in peoples eyes for a job to support themselves and/or their family... is palatable." -Einstein, http://www.imperialconflict.com/forum/v … ?id=157429 (post #18)

Re: Highspeed debt!

" You are taken statements responding to Dpenguins as though they are responding to you. Reading comprehension fail."
I commented on something you posted. This is a political discussion forum after all?

Yet again you did not reply to the very content nor provide a new argument. I take it you do not wish to debate at all?

Re: Highspeed debt!

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/2011/08/24/obama_to_break_bush039s_debt_record_in_12_the_time_262155.html

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/obama-beats-bushs-u-s-debt-accumulation-in-less-than-half-the-time/

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/01/30/as-debt-ceiling-skyrockets-obama-no-longer-calling-bush-increases-unpatriotic/

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/09/29/politifact-wapo-no-obama-is-the-undisputed-debt-king/
Read that one in full since it totally debunks you.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Highspeed debt!

> Little Paul wrote:

> " You are taken statements responding to Dpenguins as though they are responding to you. Reading comprehension fail."
I commented on something you posted. This is a political discussion forum after all?

>Yet again you did not reply to the very content nor provide a new argument. I take it you do not wish to debate at all?

You took something I posted in response to Dpenguins and assumed it was a response to you. It wasn't. I was responding to Dpenguins  when I said "No point in providing sources", and it was in reference to the statement immediately following it. Re-read it again.

You claimed Obama had a larger share of the debt than Bush, without citing any source. I cited a source with information to the contrary of your claim. You claim the source is flawed without explanation, and then try to change your claim to include a per-year or per-term argument. That is dishonest. You can't debate a dishonest person.

The great thing about being skeptical is I can accept any claim proven to be true with evidence, I am not a part of any political party or movement that I have to defend with religious fervor. If you claim that Obama has racked up more national debt as of  the date of your post, provide some evidence, and I will check it out. If you can't you're just making a baseless assertion, and that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. I'm not going to waste my time assisting anyone with their cognitive dissonance.

"See and Let Yourself Be Seen" - Robin Trower, Little Bit of Sympathy

"Do What Thou Wilt" - Aleister Crowley, Liber al Legis
**************************************************************
"The desperation in peoples eyes for a job to support themselves and/or their family... is palatable." -Einstein, http://www.imperialconflict.com/forum/v … ?id=157429 (post #18)

Re: Highspeed debt!

> Einstein wrote:

> http://www.realclearpolitics.com/2011/08/24/obama_to_break_bush039s_debt_record_in_12_the_time_262155.html

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/obama-beats-bushs-u-s-debt-accumulation-in-less-than-half-the-time/

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/01/30/as-debt-ceiling-skyrockets-obama-no-longer-calling-bush-increases-unpatriotic/

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/09/29/politifact-wapo-no-obama-is-the-undisputed-debt-king/
Read that one in full since it totally debunks you.


I've actually already read the last one, and it does not address the total debt added per president, only percentage increases and percentage of GDP. That is irrelevant to little paul's claim.

Your RCP link clearly states "In 31 months of Barack Obama

"See and Let Yourself Be Seen" - Robin Trower, Little Bit of Sympathy

"Do What Thou Wilt" - Aleister Crowley, Liber al Legis
**************************************************************
"The desperation in peoples eyes for a job to support themselves and/or their family... is palatable." -Einstein, http://www.imperialconflict.com/forum/v … ?id=157429 (post #18)

46 (edited by Little Paul 04-Feb-2012 11:26:55)

Re: Highspeed debt!

"You took something I posted in response to Dpenguins and assumed it was a response to you. It wasn't."
I Knew when I cut it out of your reply to Dpenguins.

"I was responding to Dpenguins  when I said "No point in providing sources", and it was in reference to the statement immediately following it. Re-read it again."
You stated there was no point in finding a source to prove "the cost of the Iraq War was not included in GWB's deficit due to some accounting trick that was done away with during the current administration."
Then I said, and I still think this is correct, that it would provide you with an additional argument against my claim.

As my English is very bad, its possible I misunderstood some part, but then you'll have to explain or I won't understand.

"You claimed Obama had a larger share of the debt than Bush, without citing any source."
true. You proly won't accept wikipedia or I already did. tongue But I will search for one if you want to.

"I cited a source with information to the contrary of your claim."
That is where we differ opinion.

"You claim the source is flawed without explanation,"
These were my arguments (they may even turn out to be false eventually but are an explanation none the less.)
1.) The date (only till end of july)
2.) Source is questionable

"and then try to change your claim to include a per-year or per-term argument."
No, I said "has a bigger part in it" and still stick to that. I never said total amount or absolute quantity. We should have agreed to a definition first. I should have done so first, I admit thats my mistake.

In my opinion if person A borrows 6 and person B borrows 4 afterwards, the last 4 makes it more impossible to pay back the debt then the first 6.
Added bush borrowed at a lower rate when estimates where better.
third, the debt he made is far more expensive ever to pay back.

"That is dishonest. You can't debate a dishonest person."
I'm sorry you feel that way HDB but it still doesn't matter in this debate and I cannot change it anyhow. I have the feeling its more of a misunderstanding then a real cheating but I can never prove that now can I?

"The great thing about being skeptical is I can accept any claim proven to be true with evidence, I am not a part of any political party or movement that I have to defend with religious fervor."
same counts for me. I also do not like any presidential candidate so I hope the best option of those failures wins.

47 (edited by Zarf BeebleBrix 07-Mar-2012 02:29:36)

Re: Highspeed debt!

Dear Firewing,

China has 50 bazillion more people than the USA. China doesn't release its numbers, ie you don't know what "works" in China and is cost-effective. And remember that slavery and digging holes and filling them back in are also industries. That you can call anything an industry does not make it a worthwhile endeavor.

In closing, please consider thinking before you make completely asinine, ridiculous, and embarrassing statements. Thanks.

Dear Dirty Iluvatar,

The misdeeds of the past do not justify the misdeeds of now. In fact, recognizing that similar deeds in the past were, in fact, misdeeds condemns current actions. Furthermore, what you're whining about has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. What are you, like 5 years old? Seriously, what the [blam]? Are you on drugs? I'm worried about you.

You don't seem to understand that the president is not an all-powerful tyrant in the USA. While your ignorant musings of what policies enacted by which party has what effect are amusing, they're really, really stupid. You sound like a stupid ass. Did Bush attack the WTC because it happened when he was president? Did Obama cause an earthquake in Japan because he was president? Please advise.

Dear HotDogBun,

Please take the 2.4B figure of Obama debt away from me. Its origin in your anus has resulted in an unpleasant odor. Thank you.

Dear tommie,

What's outrageous about tax cuts?

The ones you're ignorantly referring to as if they're responsible for anything but a tiny fraction of our deficit (apparently you didn't know that) are... well, only responsible for a tiny fraction of our deficit. Presumably you meant they were outrageous because they resulted in a very irresponsible deficit. Since you now know that they didn't result in any such deficit (insignificant %), are they still outrageous?

And you go on to explain how ignorant you are of taxation in the USA. Why not ask for information, rather than spam a bunch of garbage?

Not taking the time to explain why capital gains are taxed at a different rate than income (which benefits absolutely everyone), I will point out that you can, in fact, blame Republicans and Democrats. That they're both at fault isn't a reason to blame neither; it's a reason to blame both. And all you ignorant douchebags that keep voting for them. smile

Dear RisingDown,

Please keep embarrassing yourself. You presume that the inherent slavery of communism is peachy. That's retarded. You presume that the increased promises of communism don't contradict with the reduction of incentives to produce of communism. That's retarded.

That you don't understand basic economics is not a reason to troll a forum. If you had any interest in educating yourself instead of posting awkwardly in denial of basic facts of reality you'd pursue it.

Dear tommie, again,

What has Obama done that sounds right?

Reached into the healthcare industry and said I CAN MAKE BETTER DECISIONS THAN YOU, MR. KEMP! That's retarded.

Bought into the auto industry, because that's what the government of the USA should be doing? That's retarded.

Reached into the banking and financial services industry and said I CAN MAKE BETTER DECISIONS THAN YOU, MR. KEMP! That's retarded.

Shut down any prospects of obtaining this age's affordable energy anywhere in our nation and its waters that he could, raising our energy prices and making us less competitive with the world? (that means less jobs, lower standard of living) That's retarded.

As an outsider, please realize that you're an outsider. You have no clue why anyone voted for anything. That's okay. But when you pretend you know why anyone voted for anything, you look really silly.

Dear Einstein,

Try to mess with my stop-loss orders and I'll invest in a hit squad and TAKE YOU OUT!

Seriously, though, WHAT? You're proposing more government involvement in the market to protect people from... themselves? Do you seriously propose to have a better understanding of people involved in the market than they do? Do you seriously propose to have a better understanding of what's good for them than they do?

Nobody forces anyone to invest in anything. If I want to day trade and short a billion shares of a stupid company doomed to fail, that's my business. If some idiot wants to bet big on something stupid, that's theirs.

My point is that trying to protect idiots from themselves with some arbitrary trading rules that sound good to people who have no idea how investing works will only hurt more people than it will help idiots.



I don't know why you guys are so interested in the amount of debt Bush or Obama accumulated--thus far, in the case of Obama. Bush was an idiot and an asshole. Obama is an idiot and an asshole. Neither one validates the other's idiocy. Bush has, to date, spent more (2 full terms). Obama has, to date, had a higher rate of spending (partial term, higher rate/year). Both suck.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]