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Topic: Deaths over the ascertian of Communism

Ok, Flint raised a point about the number of deaths over the ascertain of communism, and I do not believe that the figure is as high as suggested, so I have started this thread to actually work this out ourselves (or unless Flint can come up with a reference showing me this figure):

"That they had to kill near 140 million doubters and people who wanted other paths to try it..."

So far we have:

<&Wornstrum> stalin's purge, yes
<&Wornstrum> chinese civil war, yes
<&Wornstrum> korean war, yes
<&Wornstrum> i would reject vietnam though
<&Wornstrum> because most deaths were caused by the SU
<&Wornstrum> US
<&Zarf|Inactive> what difference does that make?  Even if the US caused most deaths...
<&Wornstrum> (interesting fun fact, did you know that the US killed 10% of the vietnamese population during the Vietnam war)
<&Zarf|Inactive> the ones that were actually killed by the Viet Cong should count
<&Wornstrum> ok, a portion then :P
<&Zarf|Inactive> okay, agreed, then
<&Zarf|Inactive> okay, let's take the invasion of Poland... clearly the USSR trying to spread communism...
<&Zarf|Inactive> oh god... we're going to have to go through every Cold War proxy fight...
<&Wornstrum> lol
<&Zarf|Inactive> and figure out which wars were whose fault, aren't we?
<&Wornstrum> well it depends
<&Wornstrum> yes
<&Wornstrum> yes we are :D
<&Zarf|Inactive> ... just South America's going to be a disaster to figure out :P
<&Zarf|Inactive> Iran-Iraq War...
<&Wornstrum> would also need to look at afghanistan
<&Zarf|Inactive> Wait, no, I got it!
<&Wornstrum> algeria
<&Zarf|Inactive> The Soviet-Chinese skirmishes!
<&Zarf|Inactive> Yemen Civil War!
<&Zarf|Inactive> Chinese invasion of Vietnam (not the Vietnam War... after that)
<&Zarf|Inactive> I'm in utter fear of trying to sort out the South American politics...
<&Zarf|Inactive> Hmm... I wonder if the US/Soviets were invovled in the two India/Pakistan wars...

So what/who else do we have?

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~Wornstrum~

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Re: Deaths over the ascertian of Communism

Expect the url

I do have a strong academic source I use to quote on Demicide.

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Re: Deaths over the ascertian of Communism

Wait, I think I found it...but it uses a different figure than the one you quoted...

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Re: Deaths over the ascertian of Communism

Ok, I would have to say that the wording of your comment is wrong, based on the source I think you are quoting...

"not to mention the near 30,000,000 of its subjects that died in its often aggressive wars and the rebellions it provoked"
(http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM)

The 174 million that you quoted includes figures for deaths caused by things like famine, but this is not evidence of "doubters and people who wanted other paths to try it..." as you called them. A supporter of communism can still die during a famine...The only figure I found regarding the deaths of "doubters and people who wanted other paths to try it..." sits at 30 million...

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Re: Deaths over the ascertian of Communism

http://hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

This one revised china deaths listed on next one


https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.TAB1.GIF

I use the central figure with the modification and round it.

The high number is of course much worse

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Re: Deaths over the ascertian of Communism

Yes, as mentioned in my previous post, I found your source...the numbers you are quoting include unintentional deaths of people with undefined political interests. Your original comment was the deaths of political activists/people against communism, which your source quotes as 30 million (I am shocked at this figure, but hey, I will accept it...the source is actually rather interesting)...

Also, this is just out of the sheer irony of it, you mistyped democide, and I google'd demicide:

"Describes events in which someone injured him- or herself notably while doing something rather stupid."
(www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=demicide)

Thought you might be trying to tell me something...(ie. referring to me hurting my point doing something stupid)

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Re: Deaths over the ascertian of Communism

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM?PHPSESSID=2a47ce24761a818095b37d0dd2e2112c

Try that

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Re: Deaths over the ascertian of Communism

Oh and the Communists controlled the
Distribution of food.

Stalin starved a lot of cities where support of communism was questioned.

Ditto Mao

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Re: Deaths over the ascertian of Communism

A good example of democide is the postie famine where England, despite having plenty of food demanded the full amount of potatoes 'owed' to them while most of the Irish crop failed.

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Re: Deaths over the ascertian of Communism

> Einstein wrote:

> https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM?PHPSESSID=2a47ce24761a818095b37d0dd2e2112c

Try that


Yes, that is the very page that I got the quote of the 30 million...(it is towards the bottom of the page)

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Re: Deaths over the ascertian of Communism

I see.

At the Bottom he quotes 100 million and 20 million as the actual numbers (100 million as Democide and 20 million via conflict with others)

I admit that I was wrong, but in the face of it, the spirit of what I said is true and the numbers are close to his central figures. I hope you would concur that the number is staggering and that I was fair in attempting to identify his numbers?

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Re: Deaths over the ascertian of Communism

> Einstein wrote:

> Oh and the Communists controlled the
Distribution of food.

Stalin starved a lot of cities where support of communism was questioned.

Ditto Mao



I was under the impression that the famine caused during the Great Leep Forward was caused by the shift from agriculture to industry (so wasn't necessarily withholding, and I was not aware of any divertion of food crops [but could easily believe such a thing]...furthermore, i cannot open his source on the famine numbers, it is blocked)...I was under the impression that the famine was caused unintentionally (similar problem with Cuba, except in reverse...looking to rid their dependence on foreign food supplies, they sought to produce their own food, but they failed due to not having the capabilities of foreign trade)

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Re: Deaths over the ascertian of Communism

> Einstein wrote:

> I see.

At the Bottom he quotes 100 million and 20 million as the actual numbers (100 million as Democide and 20 million via conflict with others)

I admit that I was wrong, but in the face of it, the spirit of what I said is true and the numbers are close to his central figures. I hope you would concur that the number is staggering and that I was fair in attempting to identify his numbers?


Yeah, I was actually surprised myself...I knew there were deaths, but did not realise so many sad

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Re: Deaths over the ascertian of Communism

Btw your the first Socialist to have taken me up on the democide argument and not disappeared from the argument when the facts present themselves.

Usually those in love with an ideal have a hard time with truth, today you earned my respect.

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Re: Deaths over the ascertian of Communism

Awww... and I was hoping we were going to have to go through each individual war in Cold War history.  You two spoiled this thread.  tongue

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Re: Deaths over the ascertian of Communism

I don't mess around with Statistics Zarf, especially ones that hurt Communists, Socialists, and Anarchists tongue

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Re: Deaths over the ascertian of Communism

Wait... what?

Worny and Flint coming to a common agreement? REWIND!

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Re: Deaths over the ascertian of Communism

> Poley wrote:

> Wait... what?

Worny and Flint coming to a common agreement? REWIND!


Based on figures of a rather reasonable source...I also find anyone's death to be regretable and unnecessary...I am too much of a hippy at heart...world peace, flower power, and all the good stuff...

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Re: Deaths over the ascertian of Communism

Why would we exclude communist supporters from famine and purge totals? The famines in communist countries were due entirely to Communist management of production and distribution of food.  In the Soviet Union it was often deliberate policy to create famine, with food being sold out of the country during the 1930s while the Soviets denied famine existed.  How is that not a proof of the failure of communism if they eat their own?

BTW i think it is something like 8% of Vietnamese who died in the war, by both sides, not that we slaughtered 10% ourselves.  And 10% quit the country as refugees 2 years after we left, when Saigon fell.

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Re: Deaths over the ascertian of Communism

The United States wiped out for all intents and purposes the 1,000,000 man NVA KNorth Vietnamese Army), and we caused horific casualties amongst the VC (Viet Cong)

And despite killing dozens of them for each of our dead we packed up and ran.

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Re: Deaths over the ascertian of Communism

> Einstein wrote:

> The United States wiped out for all intents and purposes the 1,000,000 man NVA KNorth Vietnamese Army), and we caused horific casualties amongst the VC (Viet Cong)

And despite killing dozens of them for each of our dead we packed up and ran.


Ok, the Vietnam War is not the best example of US superiority. The US were responsible for killing 10% of the Vietnamese population, dropped enough bombs that they could have bombed the entire state of Maine, and furthermore, 35% of the country was designated "free-fire zones" in which US troops could kill whoever they liked and never be held accountable, which saw villagers slaughtered. Also, the source I am using also goes on further to say that the US broke virtually every law regarding war.

Reference: Genocide, War Crimes and the West by Adam Jones

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Re: Deaths over the ascertian of Communism

IF i recall there have been significant communist revolts in South Africa as well.

NEE NAW NEE NAW

Primo

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Re: Deaths over the ascertian of Communism

> [TI] Primo wrote:

> IF i recall there have been significant communist revolts in South Africa as well.


The US also broke trade sanctions to help buffer South Africa from communism, and attempting to establish the spread of liberalist views in Africa. I was not aware of revolts though, interesting though...

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Re: Deaths over the ascertian of Communism

apparently only like 200 people died in the rand rebelion, not more than a bleep on your radar i guess tongue
i thought it was more than that.

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Re: Deaths over the ascertian of Communism

Southern Africa not South Africa, Angola had communists fighting in civil war when portuguese left, cuba sent troops there, I think that one lasted 30 years.

First of "USA killed 10% of Vietnam"  I repeat I think you are counting all casualties including those caused by Viet Cong rebels and Viet Minh invaders on South Vietnamese population

And "free fire" zone does not mean slaughter civilians at will it meant return fire and attack hostile guerillas without seeking authorization from hq. ALL those zones were on RVN territory which was being invaded by North Vietnam.  think about it if we had 35% of the country in a slaughter zone and we were there since 1954 and rained more bombs than we dropped in WW2 then why are you saying only 10% of the country died at our hands?  if we were there to exterminate we'd have exterminated.

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