26 (edited by Justinian I 06-Jun-2008 09:06:30)

Re: Sollution for Iraq

Yell,

Yeah. It was because of the uneducated masses back then, that our early Republic was limited to white, male, landowning elites.

And I should make it clear that a strong middle class and educated population does not guarantee a democratic government. Wilhelm II could have maintained power had he continued Bismarck's policies. But a successful Democracy first and foremost requires a strong middle class and educated population. All Democracies that continue have a strong middle class and educated population, but not all such populations have Democracies.

Zarf,

I disagree that it would necessarily be seen as America being selfish. It would be possible to pull off a kind of policy change realization toward something that was more pragmatic. And even if that was the case, who cares? Continued occupation is simply expensive in terms of money and morale. All political leaders should heed Sun Tzu's advice. Win and end a war quickly, and avoid fighting a prolonged war. Prolonged wars are bad, you want to avoid them.

Re: Sollution for Iraq

You asked for an example of a democracy without a educated middle class and I named the greatest. There are less than one hundred in the history of the world, so I don't see why you stick to your "law of democracies". Fact is, given the vote, most people vote their country good education and economic freedom, so democracies tend to transform themselves into that state even they start out otherwise.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

28 (edited by Justinian I 06-Jun-2008 11:16:14)

Re: Sollution for Iraq

Yell,

In the case of the US, there was a strong middle class. They were able to challenge the world's most powerful empire for pete sakes. Moreover, they effectively established a Republic-Plutocracy whereby the wealthy elite enjoyed exclusive voting rights. Even in to the late 19th century, there were property and competency qualifications that excluded a significant number of Americans from voting. This wasn't all about race either, a large percentage of whites were excluded from voting as well.

For our early and middle history, the case was most often that the upper classes voted and the poorer majority could not. This means that until universal suffrage became a practical reality in the US, which is essential for democratization, using the US as an example does not count. A popular republic is very different from a plutocratic republic.

When we look at Iraq, a plutocratic republic could possibly work, but it is decades from being ready for a popular republic.

There is not one example of a popular republic just spontaneously coming in to existence on its own, and then developing a strong middle class due to demand for higher education. Rather, plutocratic republics turned in to popular republics as education became available, due to the demand for an educated work force. The economy drives social change, social change does not drive the economy.

Re: Sollution for Iraq

Justanian, 

Freedom and prosperity,....the ability to be confident in your community first and the security of your family leads to a prosperous middle class.

People of meager means, but with ambition and drive come to western nations to live in peace and prosperity.

Its Freedom that promotes self drive and prosperity.

Any people in any nation on this Earth can accomplish a hell of a lot more than a central Govt. of mandates and controls......no matter what degree of control that central Govt. may have.

It is Conservatism 101.  Take away the Govt. control and the people will prosper.
Increase the Govt. control and the people are controlled.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: Sollution for Iraq

BW,

Eh, I don't know what any of that has to do with Iraq and Democracy. Yes, people who are restricted by government have limited options and lower drive. Yes it is inefficient for government to control the economy. Yes people with ambition want to come to western nations. Your point is?

And I disagree that social reforms come first in the evolution of the social and economic state of a society. Rather, changes in circumstance (like the economy - increased transportation, industrialization, and communications etc) lead to social and political changes. Iraq needs to have those changes first before it can develop a middle class, an educated population, and later a viable popular republic.

Re: Sollution for Iraq

In other words, eliminate the dictator and the confines of a restrictive Govt.
and the Middle class will emerge.

"Your point is?"  _ _

My point is Iraqs restrictive Govt. was removed, the new Govt. is market driven, and the ambitious and industrious Iraqis can now prosper in Iraq.

Social reforms?  not sure what you are getting at.

As to the infra of Iraq.  Dude.  This is EXACTLY what the US/Coalition has been doing in Iraq. 
Its the story we DO NOT get from the Media.  They are to excited to report the next suicide killer or dead US Servicman than they are the actual story in Iraq.

Agreed on the Future of Iraq.  Its happening now.  More and more so.

I think we agree dude.  Or, do you believe its not possible and that IRAQ needs a dictator to crack a whip.
I believe in people .... period, no matter where they come from..... to live free and prosper.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: Sollution for Iraq

I think you'd better define "middle class" because I don't see how a "strong middle class" gets shoved into a pluticratic republic and denied the vote.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Sollution for Iraq

With all the oil they have,I'm convinced they can acchieve an open market high level democracy.(education, middle class included). I see one main problem for iraq and that is 3 ethnic groops hating each other. That is the biggest problem. The second in line is their neighbooring countries having intrests there.

The first problem can be partly solved by a good "splitting up". I abandon one my first thought of having 3 different countries because of DPS good argument neighbooring countries pressure. But 3 regions with a certain  state of autonomy is still worth the disadvantages in my eyes.

Re: Sollution for Iraq

In the US, 1890's 1900's.....

Woman couldnt vote, or hold jobs.
Want Ads for employment said "Jews" or "Irish" or "Italians..... Need not apply."

Rental units in down town NY were given only to fellow countrymen.

Native American Indians were confined to their reservations.

.....

In the former Czech republic, the ethnic groups started wasting each other.

Irish and British clashed in N. Ireland until only recently.

In China they are wasting Tibet and other northern groups.


Iraq has three groups that hate each other ???

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: Sollution for Iraq

The shiites, the suunies and I can't think of the third group atm. Too sleepy and work is boring

Sex without the e is still SX!

Re: Sollution for Iraq

kurds

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Sollution for Iraq

lol

Re: Sollution for Iraq

hmm i don

Re: Sollution for Iraq

iraq has no middle class anymore, who can is fleeing or already out of iraq. the nation has a great lack of qualified personell, such as doctors, engineer mid and high level officals etc. why did they run off? because criminals and terrorists shot their families down, or their neighbours or friends as a warning. after some good people got killed around you, everyone would run. these people were and are able to flee, because they can sell enough property to gain money for a safe escape. at daytime US and iraq patrols can prevent those killings, but the night still is time for new butchering. so first of all, iraq (and most of all the nations centre around Bagdad) needs more security around the time.

ethic problems are the next topic. three factions are still struggeling for more power: Kurds, Sunnits and Shiits
Under the rule of Saddam, Sunnits hold all key offices in administration and economy. After the collapse of the regime they had to fllee or at last step down. this caused a vacuum, bebause there were and are not enough skilled people to fill these positions. if you follow the media, you would find news relating to shot high officals, these were the top elite who filled the first vacuum. kill enough experts and at some time chaos is ruling the administration. these kills had a show effect to the other skilled managers who fled outside the nation, when they could not live in the security of the green zone. Sunnits are still underrepresented and the only chance to get the job done ist to reinstall old Saddam officals (who often ordered the killing of their sucessors). But this is not possible atm because of the other two ethics.

The Shiits are still the ethic with the highest part of the population. In their logic the majority has to rule the nation, and the majority are the shiits. Shiits are linked to Iran, because it is the only shiit nation in the world. This is natural behavior in the world. As you all know relations between USA and Iran are at best worse. For US-policies it is under no circumstances possible that an Iran friendly government is ruling Iraq. So the Shiits are kept away from power as good as possible. You can imagine that the Shiits are pretty unhappy about that and will continue to listen more to the wishes of theheran than to bagdad. what is needed here should be clear: democracy is defined by the rule of the majority. when shiits win the coming elections, they should rule the country. in the same way they have to be installed at key officals to represent their power and in the same way show them, that a nation cannot be ruled by their faction alone. at the beginning they will rule at the command of iran, but when they grip to power is tightend, they will start to regin in their own interest.

Kurds: the kurds are in good control of northern iraq, but their economic independence is not secure. kurds are still trying to gain control over the north-iraq oil production centre around Mossul. the way to gain control is old: remove local citizens and replace them with kurds, when they have the majority they can claim this area for the kurds. when the kurds can accomplish that, they will reach economic independence and may even try to install their own nation. this has to be stopped, even if US-forces have to install overall controll in the north too (which is actually not really in effect). like the shiits, the kurds have to be more integrated in the nations administration and economy by appointing mid and high level officals in key positions.

Security:
The USA is losing two wars: Afganistan and iraq, because they lack the manpower for both battlefields. there are two ways: Send more men in both battlefields, or concentrate on a single target.
More men: Both battlefields have their own problems in the international system. For Iraq even a president Obama won't find much more nations for support than Bush had at its best time in there. "Old europe" will never send troops there, not after Bushs actions. US credit dropped so deep down in the world in 8 years, that all democratic nations have great problems to convince their electors for more troops for US-battlefields.
So, where to look next? There is an easy way for iraq: Send standart UN-Forces into it. In most cases they come from half dictatorships in africa or south east asia, are poorly armed an get overrun quickly. When the mission has failed, the UN failed it, not the USA or their axis. Second are troops out of the region, giving the nation under control by the neighbours like Iran, Saudi-Arabia, Syria etc. This would lead to a great instability and fast to a war between the factions for the control of the iraqi oil ressources.
The other option is to withdraw one battlefield. In the end it is iraqi oil vs. afgani drug fields. The choice is simple.

democracy:
When you have a middle class, agreements between the 3 ethics for a iraqi nation and security, the US can try to rise a democracy, which would need about 10-20 years to reach a point we can call it firm.   

breaking up scenario:
breaking up oraq is no solution, but the start of an region wide war. atm iraq is a buffer between iraq and saudi arabia. both are extremly religious countries, what results in a deep hate on each other. as the Shiits are in the overall majority in the south, they will claim this region for their nation, giving Iran direct access to the Saudi-Arabian border. A scenario Riad would never accept. Turkey can never allow the kurds to establish their own nation, because of the kurdi minorities in south east turkey. the result would be an invasion...

Re: Sollution for Iraq

...(end of message box) even if they have to fight international forces. latest turkey operations in northern iraq showed there ability and the weakness of the USA for securing the iraqi border as it is their duty by international law. (i could write more an more, but perhaps another day, work is calling, have fun discussing. i like reading these debates, it is so ridiculous what some people write here big_smile )