Topic: Which system is more greedy?

Timmyville brought this one on...

First let's look at the lowest levels

Socialists want other peoples monies to help fund programs they desire (and some of their own money).

Conservatives just wish to allow people to keep what people earn except for defense level and emergency funding level stuff.

A good example... The Tea Party... TEA stands for Taxed Enough Already. We think that the Government is greedy with our money.

The Occupy crowd wants their college education paid off by others.

One person wants his own money, another person wants everyone elses money...



I would have to say, by far socialism is more greedy

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Which system is more greedy?

You are looking at this in only one direction.

You used an example earlier where a rich persons greed fuels the economy, so will reuse your example.

"Let's establish my worth now...

In Cash and Stocks 10 million
In payroll 1 million (I have a golden parachute but the pay is low)
Capital Gains per year is 1 million
My stock market plays earn me a quarter of a million a year also
My house is worth five million, and my time share another million
I have assorted vehicles, art, antiques and valuables worth another million
I own a helicopter worth $500,000"

You also comment that "the Government is greedy with our money."

So, the rich think they are being taxed too much, so lets say the tax rates are cut in order to keep the rich happy. Now one of 2 things happens, the revenue created by the country in question (the US) drops OR the revenue is created elsewhere (by creating other taxes aimed at someone else. Politicians won't certainly take a pay-cut, it will end up costing the lower earners more in tax, or see public spending cut. Now for a country that has a debt problems, I have no doubt that there are problems with the tax system, but cutting taxes seems to be counter productive.

Also the same rich person wanting tax cuts is self greed, where as a socialist, in theory, are about equal level of input and spreading wealth evenly. The conservative is saying "let me keep more of my money" whilst enjoying the benefits of public expenditure, where the socialist is saying "let's have more input by EVERYONE in order to give everyone adequate/equal benefits". From a rich persons perspective it might appear socialists are greedy, but from a poorer persons perspective, the richer person is more greedy.

I personally stand somewhere in the middle, personal greed allows us to strive for more, whilst tax revenue should still be proportinate to the amount you earn in order to help the poorer person, as well as giving enough room for those who want to strive for better things are able to. BUT I don't personally know much about the tax system in the US, just thinking in general terms...

I give your invention the worst score imaginable. An A minus MINUS!
~Wornstrum~

Re: Which system is more greedy?

The notion that "tax cuts cost the government money" is based on the assumption that there would be the same amount of taxable profits and value gains in the economy if taxes had been higher.

As our government can't accurately track our economic growth by up to 0.5% every 90 days -- and they were a full 2% off about the recession for two years -- I have 0% confidence in such projections.  It's quite plausible that leaving all that dough in the private sector helped keep the economy chugging along.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Which system is more greedy?

A socialist is willing to pay more taxes, and wants everybody to do the same, particularly the people who can afford to (the rich), in exchange for social programs that help the more needy people in society.

A conservative, in Einstein's words, believes that he is "taxed enough already".

Based on that definition, I don't think there's an argument in terms of greed.

Worrrrrrrrrrrrrrd

5 (edited by Zarf BeebleBrix 02-Dec-2011 21:41:37)

Re: Which system is more greedy?

Is it really generosity, though, when the resources in question for those programs don't come from the people willingly giving those resources?  At its most extreme (not that you advocate this, but using it as an example), would I be more generous if I donated $5 to charity, or if I took $50 from someone else against their will (remember, we're talking about taxes... which, by definition, are against one's will without some sort of legal consequence... otherwise, they'd be businesses), and gave that guy's $50 and my $5 to charity?

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The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Which system is more greedy?

Let's go on this assumption to

If I donate $50 I choose where it goes.

If you force me to give $50 I do not choose where it goes.

Which is more greedy?

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Which system is more greedy?

> Einstein wrote:

> Let's go on this assumption to

If I donate $50 I choose where it goes.

If you force me to give $50 I do not choose where it goes.

Which is more greedy?


You do get to chose, it's called elections...


"Is it really generosity, though, when the resources in question for those programs don't come from the people willingly giving those resources?  At its most extreme (not that you advocate this, but using it as an example), would I be more generous if I donated $5 to charity, or if I took $50 from someone else against their will (remember, we're talking about taxes... which, by definition, are against one's will without some sort of legal consequence... otherwise, they'd be businesses), and gave that guy's $50 and my $5 to charity?"

The way I see it, is it tries and lowers some of the GDP gap. The people that are losing their jobs, lacking pay rising, etc, will look at the CEO's of companies who are not affected by the recession and think "why do they make cuts in order to protect their income?". Like I said, it's entirely a matter of perspective.

Also you are basing it on the person who donates $5 is deciding where the money goes...furthermore it would be a closer percentage of contribution. The socialist ideal would be to take from everyone, and create equal services for everyone. The rich man is saying "let me keep MY money, I can buy whatever I want so it doesn't affect me if the public health system, etc, sucks". It comes back more to what you want the tax dollars to do, and the socialist is saying "help everyone".

Personal greed vs community greed are not the same...

I give your invention the worst score imaginable. An A minus MINUS!
~Wornstrum~

Re: Which system is more greedy?

> Einstein wrote:
>
>First let's look at the lowest levels. Socialists want other peoples monies
>to help fund programs they desire (and some of their own money).
>Conservatives just wish to allow people to keep what people earn except
>for defense level and emergency funding level stuff. A good example...
>The Tea Party... TEA stands for Taxed Enough Already. We think that the
>Government is greedy with our money. The Occupy crowd wants their
>college education paid off by others. One person wants his own money,
>another person wants everyone elses money... I would have to say, by
>far socialism is more greedy.

I think the Occupy movement has a point to be made here though.  Back when most of the Tea Partiers were young adults many were afforded the advantage of attending college courtesy of deeply subsidized public schools.  That's not something that my generation gets to enjoy.  As state funding receives cut after cut after cut, student costs have skyrocketed.  My local university system is talking about an 81% increase in tuition over the next four years, and that's after similar increases over the past few.  There's complaints to be made that the universities have adopted a more corporate business model, less focused on education and affordability and more focused on revenues and marketing, and that has contributed to the problem, but a very large factor here is the reality that state subsidies for the university have collapsed in recent years.

The way I see it is that the Tea Partiers want to have their cake and eat it too.  Back when they were young they were the beneficiaries of a society that realized that investing in the youth was an investment in the future.  That society paid taxes so that college was very affordable and within reach for countless students who went a long ways in life because of the opportunities that were made available to them.  But the Tea Party crowd doesn't want to pay it forward.  They got their cake and they'll eat it too.  Subsidies for them, tax cuts for them.  In all due respect, I can't think of many better example of intergenerational greed... but I can think of a few.

Take the Paul Ryan plan for Social Security, another favorite of the Tea Party.  It basically says "Here dies Social Security, except for the age group that dominates the Tea Party.  Those Tea Partiers get to keep their Social Security benefits.  Everybody my age has to pay tax dollars to provide those benefits to them.  But someday far from now when I've spent a good many tax dollars providing old-age pensions for my elders, what do the Tea Partiers want?  They want to eliminate Social Security so that I never benefit from the old-age pension program that I paid tax dollars to support my entire life.  Once again.  A complete have your cake and eat it too attitude.

And they may very well manage to have their cake and eat it too.  But that doesn't mean their greed doesn't deserve my disgust.

Re: Which system is more greedy?

That was well put.

It's an argument my Minnesotan relatives always put forth. "Why can't I just donate money to my church", or wherever they see fit.

The fact of the matter is that, given the choice, nobody would pay enough to legitimately support anything. And then, out go the streetlamps (paid for by taxes), up come road tolls (to pay for road maintenance), etc etc.

It's no coincidence that the midwestern states are the "red" states, since those are the states that don't SEE the homeless and the poverty as much as the big cities.

Worrrrrrrrrrrrrrd

Re: Which system is more greedy?

How many students per a class?

Where is the money going.


When you think on it, you might understand why 81% increases can happen. And why you need to end some liberal practices.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Which system is more greedy?

> Einstein wrote:

>When you think on it, you might understand why 81% increases can happen. And why you need to end some liberal practices.

Like I told you earlier.  Universities have started to adopt corporate business models.  Marketing draws an ever larger share of expenses.  Features that do little to improve educational value are aggressively pursued.  Administration has ballooned over the past couple decades.  One solution that would fix some of the recent escalation in costs would be to abandon the corporate model.  It doesn't work here.  It creates countless perverse incentives to do everything but provide the core objective of the institution.

The single larger factor in rising student costs, especially in instances like this 81% increase in tuition, is the gutting of state funding for universities.  Back when the Tea Partiers went to school, the state generously funded the costs of their getting a college education.  Today it's a fraction of that and it's getting much worse every day.  Why?  Because they Tea Partier's got theirs' and they don't want to pay it forward.  Same thing with Social Security.  They truly are the greediest generation in history.  Everything is about making sure that they get the very best of the welfare state and ensuring that everybody else pays for it but will never get it themselves.

Re: Which system is more greedy?

> Timmyville wrote:

> That was well put.

>It's an argument my Minnesotan relatives always put forth. "Why can't I just donate money to my church", or wherever they see fit.

>The fact of the matter is that, given the choice, nobody would pay enough to legitimately support anything. And then, out go the streetlamps (paid for by taxes), up come road tolls (to pay for road maintenance), etc etc.

>It's no coincidence that the midwestern states are the "red" states, since those are the states that don't SEE the homeless and the poverty as much as the big cities.

The word you're looking for here is 'externality'.  Both positive and negative.  Externalities are where the sort of laissez-faire economics that Flint professes truly fails... you waste a tremendous amount of welfare when you pretend that third parties aren't affected by exchanges between two parties.  It happens all the time.