@ Coco

Just read what you wrote.

Im very clear.  You just cant read.

Lol... Black_Wing... your words: "This is what makes me a Conservative."

You know what a conservative is? A conservative is someone who don't wanna see changes. Someone who want to keep stuff as it is.

So for Iraq that must mean that you wanna see still Saddam there.

But I am in a rush now. So I will give a proper responce when I am back home .

Look, a conservative regime is a regime that wanna change as less as possible. That wanna contain how it is. In the past around the French Revolution it was a hype to change as much as possible. Get rid of the old conservative kings and replace them with a new style of regime.

After the Napoleon time the 4 big parties of Europe came together at the congress of Wien. There they decided to be more conservative again. Place a king, contain your borders, don't expand etc etc etc.

That is being conservative.

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"It still hasent sunk in in Russia.... or China...." Why on Earth must there be Democracy? Are you so convinced that EVERY country on this world must be democratic???

"Just as the US and UK secured and rebuilt a fragile and Broken Germany and Italy and Japan, after WW2
Just as the US and UK rebuilt a broken France.  after WW2"

Here you make a valid error again. The only thing that had to be restored were the buildings and infrastructure. The democratic system was allready functioning before the Germans invaded the countries. Iraq and Afghanistan had never a democratic system. So you have to build up that system from scratches. You can't believe it will be as fast as it was in the countries after WW2. Cuz those countries allready had it. It will take way and way more years for Iraq and Afghanistan to be democratic... if the people want that. And I agree on DPS again. We will only know when the Coalition redraw their troops. Allthough I hope the troops stay a bit longer. As soon as the Coalition troops are gone we can see if the democratic system will work there.

"Is this not what any person can want for their family ?
Do you actually question the vast majority of folk in Iraq wanting peace, security and prosperity ?"

No, I believe the most want to have peace again. But it are the radicals, that are screwing stuff up.

"You loose when you let the violent, murderous minority take charge.  A few with guns will always control a crowd."

I totally agree on you. And for the moment. If we redraw our troops NOW, this will happen. Then Afhanistand and Iraq will fall back in the system they were in. So our troops must stay a bit longer there.

But now comes my question: Finally after years and years Iraq became fully democratic. There are 3 major parties that are in the race to win the elections. 2 are more Western based and 1 is more Eastern based. The people vote for the Eastern based gouvernement... That party removes the election part and voila, the country is back to the state it was before. (Hitler did the same in his time he got elected). This is pure hypotetical. What must we do then? Start all the [mondo drama] again? Or just let it how they choosed it?

"You loose when you listen to the voices of weak, appeasement driven, defeatists that say, "It cant happen.  They can never live free and democratic and in peace."

I never said that . I only said for at the moment, it will not work. It has to take more years to become a solid machine. Rome isn't build in one day either. Nor will the democratic system in Iraq and Afghanistan be build in a few years.

"I have faith in people to live in peace, free and to prosper and to secure their own lives.

Free from any control, no matter from what quarter."

And that is what I believe too. But the bad thing is... the difference in the world are so damn big... it will be damn hard to achieff that. Maybe in the Western world this can be created... but we live different. In the Eastern part of the world... it will be harder.

We keep Church and State seperated. Their is the Religion the leading way.
That makes why there are so damn much and unnesaceraly struggles.

We all must loose our narrowminded view and open our eyes for other shit. Not only us but they as well. If we can talk peacefully about this. Without any of the sides start to scream, the world will be such a beautifull place by that time.

I hope some day that will be reached. Cuz I prefer a peacefull world, with no wars.

I gave my thoughts, my opinions about how I see it.

I don't qualify myself to a leftist... otherwise I wouldn't join the army?

But yeah I have alot of leftists thoughts. But from your perspectiv about conservative... yeah I have some of those thoughts too.

But we can all think and say what the best solution would be. But in the end... we have nothing to say and others above us will make the decisions. I just hope all will work out fine.

hehee how u mean?

@ Archy

1.  Where did I write that I "Think everyone in the army is a lefty. . ." ??

2.  Where did I write that I "Believe I know what is best for everyone" ??

3.  Force Democracy ?  No, I Believe that given the opportunity, people live in a natural state of democracy not strong arm rule.

4.  As to your view of what I think of Iraq....you are incorrect.  Its logical that people want to live in peace, prosperity and security.

5.  Yada yada  on your democracy diatribe.  No [doubt about it].  I made that point.....as in Russia and China.

6.  I dont assume much.......what I see is you assuming way too much.

Put your thoughts together in a coherent way.....if you need clarification, ask, do not assume. 
Makes you look bad.

emperorhez britain is a democracy. the fact that most of the population is in a part of the country doesnt make it undemocratic. you might as well say that ignoring scotland/wales/n.ireland, england still isnt a democracy becos of the focus of the population in the london area. where people live in a country doesnt affect how democrat it is. democracy is power to the people (from the greek word demos, meaning people) not power to the divisions of a country. it doesnt matter how much power wales or scotland have as entities in themselves. each person in wales and each person in scotland has the same rights and power as each person in england, just as each person in a county like surrey has the same rights and power as each person in warwickshire or yorkshire.

@BW
1)sorry i actually misread what you said in regard to that point

2)i quoted you (that's what these mean - " " - they're called quotation marks. most people like to back up their arguments with actual evidence rather than random accusations like you - see point 7). you told cocanut that he was in the wrong becos he shudnt assume he knows wots best for places like iraq when he said that we shud leave them to develop democracy themselves. my point is that you are criticising him for believing he knows wot is best for a country, when it is in fact you who is so sure that your view on the matter is the correct one. in other words, you're a whopping great hippocrit.

3)+4) you said yourself on the last page that you believe it is right that the british and american troops are going into places like Iraq and toppling the old regimes there and attempting to replace them with democracy. that is called forcing democracy on them. I'm not saying that they dont want it, im saying that a nation cannot have it made for them. as i said to emperorhez, the whole point of democracy is that the power is in the ppl. in western democracies, which were set up by the ppl, if we dont like sumthing, we have the right and power to complain and to maybe make a change. how can any power be attributed to the people in the years to come when they didnt even have the power to deal with the old regime, and just had sum1 else deal with it for them? Look at it another way. children who are spoilt when they are young and have everything given to them by their parents often have the most trouble adjusting when they have to fend for themselves in later life, becos they are used to having things done for them. this is exaclty wot will happen in places such as iraq if we go in and give them democracy and then leave again. they wont be able to sustain it themselves becos they dont have the experience of how it was devloped or for wot reasons each aspect of the democrcy was established.

5) if you already made that point then why cant you understand it. democracy takes time. we cant go into countries like iraq and simply give it to them. it wont work. every country in history that has had democracy got it for themselves. even germany which you claimed was given democracy by the US, had a democracy before hitler.

6) i assumed nothing. all the things i said were responses based on what you had said. the reasons for my responses were backed up by the evidence of quotations of what you had said, or from factual historical examples. you on the other hand assume that anyone who disagrees with you has to be a lefty, and instead of making arguments based on fact, you spout your opinions and just plainly say they are right, with no actual reasons.

you are a seriously thick person. i am one of the most coherent people in this forum, and i make far more solid arguments than you do. take the 6th point in your last post. how about you give us some examples of me making assumptions rather than just accusing me of doing it?

well its not democratic that Scots can vote on stuff in England but not in Scotland is it? its not democratic that Wales will resoundingly vote no on somethnig but because of England's size it gets passed anyway! thats not fair is it?

the Times newspaper doesnt know what its talking about... for a start Scottish oil officially counts as UK revenue- therefore figures that say Scotland gets more money per head than England fails to take that into account. the other major error is the fact that companies operating in Wales & Scotland will pay their tax in London. this also isnt taken into account since it then makes it appear that more money is paid in by London & less by Wales & Scotland.

its not strange to leave out northern ireland since they are not a part of Britain.

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news/wales-news/2008/03/25/wales-has-highest-death-rate-in-iraq-after-us-91466-20668037/

its ok for people who already have their own sovereign states to live in to bash those aspiring nations but I bet you lot wouldnt like the roles reversed. imagine if the Netherlands was back under spanish rule?

"its not democratic that Wales will resoundingly vote no on somethnig but because of England's size it gets passed anyway!"

Yes it is.  Democracy is rule of the majority if England has the majority England is going to get their way more often than not.  Every democratic system has this issue where one region or group complains that there voice isn't heard because of their size.  Well Democracy is based on population, you want more control either A) Get more people (no idea how you could) or B) convince people of the larger population to see things your way, if you can't do that you are unfortunately up shit creek without a paddle and are exposed to the dark side of democracy.

"its ok for people who already have their own sovereign states to live in to bash those aspiring nations but I bet you lot wouldnt like the roles reversed. imagine if the Netherlands was back under spanish rule?"

I have no idea what you mean with this... Yes the Spain ruled over the Netherlands... and many other countries in the past. My god they even controlled the entire part of South America...

I have no idea what you wanna say... How on Earth would Spain try to take control of the Netherlands again? There is not a single reason for that.

So please explain it more... cuz I can;t give a reasonable answer to that statement.

@ Archy....

no no dude.  do not twist my intent.

I stated, very clearly, that given the chance, people will live in a free, democratic, prosperous and secure state.
People here say Iraq cant be force fed Democracy, or that Iraq doesnt know how to live in a democratic state of being.

I DONT know what is "Best"  .... Like others here.  I know that GIVEN A CHANCE, "People" will live democratic.  I believe Iraqis are people.  Not animals that need the caged, controlled atmosphere of a dictator......as people here think.

You are a great debater....ROFL....  wow.  Impresssed.

You secure the violence, disarm the militias, and let people talk out their differences, instead of settle it on the street.
Proof that they can be democratic ??   The amount of people that come out to vote.  Thats proof.

And, all you did was assume.  You asked nothing, you drew a false conclusion, and then you told us how smart you are.

Funny, how I the conservative stands behind democracy and less control.
You do not.  Say, let them live in chaos, and let it sort itself out.

Armed camps control areas.  W/O weapons, minds and compromise control areas.