> xeno syndicated wrote:

> What's the value of even having argumentative / debate discussions on internet forums in general.  I know having debates on this particular forum is pretty much pointless, for it is nearly thoroughly censored by the right-wing, near police-state enforcement by such mods as Zarf , but for the sake of this discussion, let's consider the value of online politics debate discussion forums / news sites comments sections in general.

In general, yeah, it makes sense.  That being said, I have to go to bat for the mods here. 

Remember, in this forum, the politics forum even specifically has exceptions placed in certain rules for the sake of preventing content-based censorship you describe.  For the most part, the only moderator intervention in the politics forum is based on issues of wording choice (such as swearing).  In issues such as swearing, there's generally not a reason why avoiding swearing changes the political content of one's message... so the net effect is extremely minimal.  As for trolling/personal attacks, it could be easily argued that allowing personal attacks is actually counterproductive to the facilitation of debate, because parties are polarized to the point where the political issue at hand suddenly becomes second to the person making the post.

> Key wrote:
>
>In the past, I have found about a dozen of you, and where you lived, and
>told you exactly your home location.  Most of you became more POLITE after
>that little incident.  Considering the nearest one of you that talked crap, lived
>no more than six miles from my house.

This says interesting things about you.

"censor or mitigate their ideas, never really fully expressing their true opinions for fear of repercussions from other posters who might vehemently disagree with them or repercussions from a totalitarian regime that might have political control over the region in which the poster lives. "

Rather new to this forum, but I can say that kind of exists here through various other players. Even though posts can be anonymous, there are people who wish to control conversations (and I am not talking about mods). The problem with the internet as a forum, is people become personally motivated. Said this a few times, but attacks in posts move away from a debate but towards personal attacks (if you want examples, am happy to dig them up).

Don't get me wrong, online anonymous forums do have a certain use, but like debates where, as you say, "[people] never really fully expressing their true opinions for fear of repercussions from other posters who might vehemently disagree with them or repercussions from a totalitarian regime that might have political control over the region in which the poster lives.", there are downsides and upsides to this sort of forum. Online it is very easy to move away from what other people suggest/argue and be more of a dictation of ideas, where in a forum where people are forced to use their identity, the discussion has the ability to be more structured with potentially more imput (and for this example I am thinking of a political forum I attended on the War in Afghanistan: Post Osama Bin Ladan).

Anonymity breeds arrogance, and noone is immune. In this forum, I have seen only one person that is rather open-minded and contributes constructively, and that is Zarf.

"In the past, I have found about a dozen of you, and where you lived, and told you exactly your home location."

Please try this, I would love to see you track me down

> ~Wornstrum~ wrote:

I have seen only one person that is rather open-minded and contributes constructively, and that is Zarf.

> Justinian I wrote:

> Yes, Zarf is an open minded and sensible person. I once supported the ideal government as the autocracy of Zarf, and I still hold to that belief.

Oh, yes, I completely and utter agree that Zarf is unequivocally absolutely best forum poster in the history of IC Politics, and perhaps internet political debate forums everywhere.

I also think the psuedo-totalitarian-socialistic-fascist-dictat - err, no, err, liberal establishment under which my residence has jurisdiction is thoroughly and unequivocally just and fair in all respects to all people of all strata of society and in no way does the law need to be changed to suit any new developments in technology, the economy, any of the sociological effects experienced our society those developments.  No, I sincerely believe our society in our day and age is perfectly fair and just in all regards.

Anonominity means no need to respect opposing ideals

Being known means being redicled (sp?) For ones ideals

Translation: Under self-censorship, people are required to change their posts to pander toward the agents in power.  In other words, no, our society isn't perfectly fair and just, and I'm not the best forum poster in IC politics history. 

I don't believe in kissing ass.  Saw a lot of that garbage when I was in the army.  Mostly because the wrong word said, towards the wrong person who was higher rank than you, pretty much shot your career in the foot.

I believe in the wholesale term, "Brutal honesty."  If I am asked for my opinion, I will give an honest assessment of the situation as I see the problem or the solution towards what i'm asked.  Beating around the bush, fence sitting, or making a balancing act of "I'm in the middle, and therefor I am neutral", leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

If you have a belief, stick by it, until at such time your belief changes.  Doesn't mean everyone else is going to like what you have to say, or in what matter you say it.

I hated Inviltrist and his nazi messages, because he got off on it, way way way back.

I hated I Like Pie, for his constant fence sitting and neutrality to any arguement thrown towards him, way way way back.

As for today.  I still hate Inviltrist, mostly because he DID firmly believe in racial purity, and was trying to teach certain members within IC to become racial bigots, so I told him so many years ago in #irc chat, that I hope he would die.  ANd that if he raised any children in his own image, that they should die as well.  I was brutally honest.  He did a lot of crap, said a lot crap, hurt at least one person, and emotionally scarred them...nope...I hated his guts, and I let everyone know it.

As for today.  I Like Pie.  He doesn't sit on the fence as much as he used to, which means he had a few disagreements, which means he had thoughts about certain subjects, which means he didn't just take a neutral stance on everything.  Which I considered a vast improvement.