1 (edited by Justinian I 16-Oct-2011 06:47:46)

Topic: Duty of Care or Darwin Award?

I want your opinion of this scenario regarding US Civil Law.

Scenario:

A property owner builds a swimming pool in his back yard and encloses it with a small fence. They keep it clean and use it a few times during the spring and summer months. During one July, a 10 year old neighborhood boy is taking a walk around the block, and spots the swimming pool. Realizing that no one there is home, he decides to climb over the fence and take a dive. Sadly, he jumps in the shallow end of the pool and drowns from the injury inflicted on this body.

Question:

Should the property owner be considered negligent in his duty of care for the child and thus owe the parents compensatory damages?

Personally, I don't think the property owner should be considered negligent, and I would go a step further by requiring the government to mail the parents their deceased child's posthumous Darwin Award.

Re: Duty of Care or Darwin Award?

not darwin award worthy.

and you are just jealous he could actually climb a fence unlike your fat ass

<parrot> there is also the odd  possibility that tryme is an idiot
<KT> possibility?
<genesis> tryme is a bit of an idiot
<Torqez> bit?

Re: Duty of Care or Darwin Award?

as i understand it in the anglo-american common law you don't owe a duty of care to random people, you owe it to specific categories of people whom the law considers to (legally) be "your neighbour".

in this case the question would be whether you had to foresee the young boy tresspassing on your property, thereby requiring you to take the necessary precautions to prevent forseeable damages to him. The victim of course remains responsible for the damages he could have forseen himself.

in your example the size of the fence could definately be an issue if a 10 year old boy could climb over it smile would this fence be constructed around the pool or around the entire garden? Because in most residential settings it should be considered abnormal for a home owner not to fence off his back yard properly, particularly in an environment with young children who may not yet fully grasp the concept of private property and tresspassing, maybe also not the dangers of diving in shallow pools without supervision although in my country the age when you're supposed to start realising these type of things is often placed at 8 years old.

Easy solution around this discussion is of course to counterclaim that the parents of the boy caused all of the damages due to both their negligence in raising the boy (clearly not instilling him with proper american values such as respect for private property smile ) in general as well as a fault in supervising their boy at the time of the accident itself.

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4 (edited by Demotivator 16-Oct-2011 19:25:47)

Re: Duty of Care or Darwin Award?

in my county there's a code for pool fences to keep kids out and if he met that code then there's no liability

also fat people can beat a chain link fence by putting a 2x4 over the top and walking on it til the metal is bent

damn kids did that to a corner of the hotel lot where I worked

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

5 (edited by Justinian I 16-Oct-2011 20:09:00)

Re: Duty of Care or Darwin Award?

Actually, the fence really wasn't supposed to be relevant. I was thinking of a very small yard fence that is like 4 feet high. But supposing there wasn't a fence, I still believe the kid deserves a Darwin award. That is a figure of speech of course. Along East's line of reasoning, I think the duty of care ought to belong to the parents. It's their fault they failed to instruct him properly.

This stuff gets even more bizarre when, for example, a robber injures themselves while running away due to jumping on defective playground equipment that breaks and injures them.

Rin,

Way to troll. My body fat percentage is 7%, but then I live in a state with lower obesity. The states with the majority of obese people are, unsurprisingly, in the South.

6 (edited by Sarah Palin 16-Oct-2011 20:35:36)

Re: Duty of Care or Darwin Award?

it would probably go to a jury depending on the size of the fence the owners had.



In US there is something called the attractive nuisance doctrine.  An adult's estate would most likely not have a cause of action because he would be a trespasser and typically trespassers are only owed a duty to refrain from reckless actions concerning some artificial (not naturally occuring) condition on the premises.  However, most courts here impose on a landowner a duty to exercise ordinary care to avoid a reasonably foreseeable risk of harm to children caused by artificial conditions (i.e. pool) on his property.  In order for the doctrine to apply the plaintiff needs to show: 1- a dangerous condition on the land that the owner is or should be aware of; 2- the owner knows or should know children frequent the vicinity of the condition; 3- the condition is likely to cause injury (dangerous because of the kid's inability to appreciate the risk) and 4- the expense of remedying the situation is slight compared with the magnitude of the risk.

Edit: err sorry. would go to a jury on the question of whether it was likely to cause injury as well.  i think people could disagree on whether a 10 year old could appreciate the risk but i'd still give him the darwin award anyways for diving in the shallow end.  either that or his parents should be beaten with a rubber hose for not teaching him pool safety by the time he reached 10 years old

So I told the cop, "No YOU'RE driving under the influence... of being a JERK!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFjjO_lhf9c

7 (edited by Key 19-Oct-2011 15:16:48)

Re: Duty of Care or Darwin Award?

The law states, that a physical SIGN that reads NO trespassing.  This has been brought up in law school before.  Any damage caused by inadvertant or unlawful trespass still falls fully on the Property Owner.

One.  A sign was not posted showing "No Trespassing" in bold lettering for all to read, including the 10 year old boy.

Two.  The pool was uncovered.  Depending on the State or Province, or country that the pool was built in, the Pool may have needed a Pool covering, which also may have detered said person from jumping in.

Any harm inflicted to a person within the bounderies of the home owner, is the full responsibility of the home howner.

It sucks.  But there are to many rulings already to ignore them.  You go by the ruling, not by what you think is right.  If the court of law of the land states that any and all deterents were not proactively deterring a trespasser with both physical and verbal warnings because those deterents are not present, then it falls on the property owner to pay for damages to the trespass.  You need more than just a gate.  A no trespassing sign, and a pool covering would have been enough for the property owner to mitigate a lawsuit or damages in trial.

It sucks, but that's how the court of law sees it.  Most cases like these don't even see a jury trial, and if they did, the Judge would have inform them what can and can not be debated if certain rulings have been brought up by the lawyer and the judge sustains the ruling.

=^o.o^= When I'm cute I can be cute.  And when I'm mean, I can be very very mean.  I'm a cat.  Expect me to be fickle.

8 (edited by Key 19-Oct-2011 15:30:46)

Re: Duty of Care or Darwin Award?

Give you a good example of the New York Warning Lable Law.  It's not an actual Law, but the lawyers use it a lot in court as a way to undermine the civil system.

A man hires a contractor to redo the flashing near the edge of his roof.  The contractor asks the homeowner if he could hold the ladder, while he's pulling the flashing off, and the homeowner refuses.  Well while up on the ladder the contactor falls off the ladder, breaking the leg.  The contractor decides to take the homeowner to court for damages.

The jury gave the ruling to the contractor, for two reasons, and two reasons only.  New York has the Good Samaritan Law, which requires those to render aid.  Originally the Good Samaritan Law was not supposed to fall under this catagory, but that's how most of the jury viewed this particular case, considering it unlawful that the homeowner wouldn't consider aid to a possible and known danger.  Two, the ladder instructions, which were printed on a sticker, stated matter of fact, "Reckomened to be used by two people."  One person on the ladder, while the second person holds it.

It's the fine print on the ladder that actually won the court case for the contractor.

Notice in how a Warning Label goes a long way in court. 

"No Trespassing"  For a pool.  Or even a sign near the pull, "Danger: This area not monitored by a lifeguard."  There are signs posted specifically at all swimming pools at a hotel or motel of this type.

"Reckomended operation by two individuals", for a ladder.

What's written goes a long way in court.

And no, the contractor didn't have a second individual, nor was it his responsibility to hire another person to hold the ladder.  You better get over that excuse right now.  The judge informs the jury that "What could have been done, can not be used in their deliberation on the subject matter of what actually did happen."  What ifs, by the ruling of the Supreme Court have no merit in the court of law.

=^o.o^= When I'm cute I can be cute.  And when I'm mean, I can be very very mean.  I'm a cat.  Expect me to be fickle.

Re: Duty of Care or Darwin Award?

what's the caption? Cause that's the stupidest outcome imaginable. It amounts to malpractice to sue a homeowner and go to trial instead of suing an insurer, who is happy to pay out so they can then soak everybody for higher premiums and blame lawyers.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Duty of Care or Darwin Award?

The insurer will not pay anything if another party is at fault.  Even an Insurer can take you to court, or refuse to pay if the accident was not an accident.

Insurers will not pay out of pocket for negligance on the part of a homeowner.  Read the fine print in your insurance contract.  Seriously?  I know about half a dozen of you that posted that you have insurance, but you never ever stated that you ever read the entire BOOK that they give you, or the fullon legalese pamphlet that only a lawyer could read and understand.

If you don't read the fine print, the fault is yours.

=^o.o^= When I'm cute I can be cute.  And when I'm mean, I can be very very mean.  I'm a cat.  Expect me to be fickle.

Re: Duty of Care or Darwin Award?

ask dpenguins

If the contractor files a claim to homeowners insurance for an accident that occurred while contractor was doing job on property, homeowners insurance will pay rather than spend 10X as much WINNING a lawsuit.  They just jack up the premium to the homeowner.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Duty of Care or Darwin Award?

some homeowner's insurance plans have liability coverage which will protect the owner from negligence to third parties.  it should be listed on your declaration page what types of coverage you have.

So I told the cop, "No YOU'RE driving under the influence... of being a JERK!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFjjO_lhf9c

Re: Duty of Care or Darwin Award?

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The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.