>>@ Fokker ?
Did I muddy up your memorial thread to a soldier who received the Medal of Honor ??  Sorry if I did.<<

Stop playing games, you know what you did and you know I am right to pull you up on it.
Now either get this thread back on topic, without the political bollocks, or get it closed. Right now I don't care which.

I dare say there are few here who can claim to know combat, or to know how it feels to be shot and to hunt out the shooter.

To see a grenade like that, the flight response is strong. To some, however, the force of duty, ethics, morality, it weighs like a mountain, and is just as unmovable.

There are people who believe their only duty is to themselves.

Then there are people who do not believe this, but instead believe in helping, assisting when need is present.

There are those who run to a fire, and those who run from a fire. The difference is important, and does exist.

> Einstein wrote:

> I dare say there are few here who can claim to know combat, or to know how it feels to be shot and to hunt out the shooter.<

I've been shot but I didn't hunt down the shooter; being shot would have made that extremely difficult had such an urge come to me. Irrelevant to your very good point, I know, but I just thought I'd say.

>To see a grenade like that, the flight response is strong. To some, however, the force of duty, ethics, morality, it weighs like a mountain, and is just as unmovable.<

My flight response didn't kick in until after I was shot, don't know why... I'm suddenly wondering if the soldier was single, there was a studythat said that single men are better at making tough decisions. Was it a study, or was is Andromeda Strain?

>There are people who believe their only duty is to themselves.
Then there are people who do not believe this, but instead believe in helping, assisting when need is present.<

Given that I believe in enlightened self interest I find myself wondering what I would do... hopefully not think too much.

>There are those who run to a fire, and those who run from a fire. The difference is important, and does exist.<

Aren't the people who run into a fire the ones most likely to die?
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Sorry to piss up your post with so many questions, I do know what you mean and I do agree, but I do think it is not quite as simple as you present.

"How was your shooting Fokker?"

I was in Thailand at the time, in one of the shitty areas by the shitty river. I took it in the stomach mainly because he was too messed up on Yaba to shoot straight. That and he seemed to think that people really do hold their guns sideways...

Anyway, the bullet lodged in my spine, and I don't mind saying it hurt so much I cried and begged for someone to kill me. It was like a rose made of pain was inside me, with the path of the bullet as the stem and the impact on my spine as the bloom. I still have nightmares about the pain... not the shooting, just the pain... and roses, which is where my analogy comes from.

It's still in there; at the time they didn't want to touch it for fear of crippling me, which is fine by me because I would not have let them touch it anyway. I'd consider it now, what with medicine advancing as far as it has, but after... 8-10 years what would be the point? It's probably all crusted over with bone now.

Oh, it was a silver short nosed revolver, a .36 I think, the [paddlepop lion] thing sprayed gunpowder everywhere.

Two bullets plus shrapnel? So did one of them shatter or was there a third shot that shattered?

But yeah, I agree that in situations like that you either run, curl up and die, or go all terminator on the buggers.

Eeeeee! That must have stung!... no wonder you went off on one...

Suddenly reminded of the time I threw salt at my neighbours pittbull as a kid.
I was a real dumb kid sometimes.

hehehe nahh I am an oldie in this game . But rarely in the politics forum.

About what your forefathers did... kk it is not you who hold the blame... that would be unfair indeed. But you as country member cannot do a thing at all. Yes it was not you but the ones who created your country were the ones who did it. They were the bastards... but you cannot live with all the welfare u have and ignore the ones that got ruined so you could live in your big house, big car, 3 tv's and all the shit like that.

That is waht you have to keep in mind. Their deeds gave you the welfare you have now.

The Netherlands became filthy rich of their colonies. Look at those colonies now... What do they have compared to us? My god our welfare is way better. Must we say: "thnx for all the goods we stole from your forefathers. Thnx we used it for our benefits and became rich, while it were YOUR goods and YOU could have been so damn rich as we are now?

My god... how selfish can you think... ofcourse not.

So I fully understand that a bit of the taxes I pay go to those former colonies.

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And as responce to Sitting_Duck:

Police was indeed one of the options I had in mind to join... but the work they do is not the work I wanna do. The police don't build up stuff. They are only guardians of their own country. Well they can be asked to help on events like the coming European Championship. But still that is not their main task.

Firefighters: well tbh... that never attracted me...

Doctor: well, it is a nice and very thankfull job... but neither the job I wanna do...

Soldiers don't only have the attack job. Well mostly yes it is. But it contains so much more. Helping when a nature disaster strikes, helping when a nature disaster strikes another country. Helping to protect people like the immigrants in South Africa. Helping to protect the people in places like Afghanistan and Iraq.

Why in gods name would someone help people in some other country? Well I am sick of the selfish thoughts of the people. NO NOT GO TO AFGHANISTAN. DON'T HELP THEM! IT IS THE WAR OF THE AMERICANS!!! What do we have to do there? Our soldiers are dieing CALL THEM BACK!!!

My god... so selfhish. I think they all forgot that America, Canada, Australia, New Sealand and all the other countries helped us to get rid of the Germans as well. Well ofcourse their were on benefits in helping as well. But still! Many many of their soldiers died. Many kids who would never see their daddy again, only because they helped some strange country wich they never heard about.

So why would we ignore the cry for help in the newly warzones???

And that is why I wanna become a soldier. To honor all the soldiers that died while they tried to bring back freedom. To honor the soldiers who gave me a free country at a cost of their own life!

It is time to do the favor back again. To help Afghanistan and Iraq to bring some freedom back as well. I don't give a [w00f] about the fact that oil has a big meaning in this war as well. I don't care... it is a shame it was one of the reasons to start the war... but well the war happend and now it is time to build up those countries again.

To give back school and houses. To give all those people a kind of welfare.

I hope this clarified a bit what I mean and what my thoughts are .

It did clarify Cocanut, and I understand your sentiment but I still do not think you are doing the right thing. The thing about "bringing freedom" is that to do so you must take part in an offensive war, during which you will be expected to shoot to kill "the enemy". Can I ask why you think you would have the right to attempt to end someone else's life due to an idealogical difference? Does it in fact make you that much different to people who blow themselves up on underground trains or fly planes into buildings? They are doing it for an ideological cause. Just because your cause or ideology is democracy would it really be so different? And it would be highly naive to think that non combatants would not be hurt. I avoided the use of the word "innocent" as just because someone is willing to defend their home land against a foreign invader does not make them "guilty" of anything. What I am trying to drive at, is what gives you or anybody else the right to judge what is right or wrong? Or who should die and who should live?

If your motive is to help people in other countries specifically then why not join a charity? Work for the Red Cross for example. No one can claim that something like that would be a cowardly thing as the Red Cross and other aid charities work in some of the most dangerous parts of the world. They also do incredible work in the aftermath of natural disasters. The Red Cross and other organisations are the ones who help people and who help build countries back up again, but crucially they are non political and do not kill anybody!

I hope I do not come across as argumentative or as if I'm preaching. You just seem like a nice guy and I hope you don't end up joining the military because it would be a terrible waste.

I don't just see US soldiers as killers, I see all soldiers as killers. I have also never wimpered, cried or indeed died as a result of the existence of a power hungry dictator. Wars just don't solve anything. How many Iraqi civilians have died violently in the five years before the Iraq war and the five years since the Iraq war? I'm not claiming Saddam was a nice guy who you would invite around for tea, but is what has followed any better than having Saddam in power? And such regime change is illegal. Now that a precedent has been set, what happens in 50 years time when maybe the USA is no longer the most powerful nation? What if Russia or China are undemocratic superpowers, will they have the right to invade all and sundry and decide who is allowed to rule what country?

It is not being cowardly to avoid a fight which you have no right to be involved in, which serves no good and which only causes suffering, hurt and death.

I dont believe Democracy will work in Iraq in Afghanstan.

Yea, I guess you believe they are animals, cant think for themsleves, and since they are savages, the need military Dictators w/secret police under no control, to keep the animals in line.

Yet, we are all equal ??

Unreal.

I dont even need to read more of this.

@coca:
the biggest trouble for the regime is the pressure between 2 different groops of muslims I think. It creates an unstable climat wich makes any form of regime hard. Its possible for the US troops to establish a saddam-like regime but I prefer not. I think the murder rate of civilians under sadam are highly underestimated.