Your not stating anything new.

I had this same arguement with people in these forums 5 years ago, and I stated, just because you go to a college or a university, doesn't equate to getting a job after graduation.  I had arguements with a bunch of...hate to say it...morons, who said they had job offers waiting for them after graduation.

Of those people who statted those job offers, many of them never got a job in the first year after graduation.  The job offers were dependant on "market conditions."  Even five years ago before the whole economic crisis of 2008, and the bubble bursting, a diploma wasn't a passport to a better life.

The marketability of a degree depends on the demand for the skills certified by that degree. Degrees in subjects including Accounting, Economics and Engineering will provide abundant vocational opportunities because those fields have a shortage of skilled labor, while degrees in subjects including Art, History and Political Science are LOLz if you are not able to perform at the 90th-99th percentile..

That said, a degree in most subjects suggests aptitude, and will provide a competitive advantage (or sometimes disadvantage) and make vocational mobility a more viable option. Moreover, the college educated have lower unemployment. On the other hand, it's legitimate to argue that the benefits of unmarketable degrees exceed the benefits they offer.

The short summary of the problem with Higher Education is that there are too many suckers to whom the simple concept of supply/demand means nothing. To them, the college degree is the free ticket to upward class mobility, and it's those losers who are driving the cost of education up. Worse, lacking the aptitude to be successful in Higher Education, graduation rate is approximately 50-60%.

As a solution, recommend requiring that everyone attend a community or technical college first, and turn Universities in to two year institutions for those students who have proven their ability to be successful in a community or technical college. That should cut costs, weed out the imbeciles, and distribute financial aid more efficiently. Not that there isn't more that can be done, but that would be a first step with significant results.

wow really, where the hell can you get a deploma with straight D's? that shit dont even happen at community colleges.

Art majors excluded, of course. 

This is exactly why im going to school for the culinary arts.  Its the one job market that always has job openings somewhere. We are humans, we need to eat food. Someone has to prepare and cook the food.  This has been a fact since the dawn of man. The caveman who excelled at cooking the food was a valued member of the caveman tribe LOL

I got into auto mechanics early cuz of this same principle. Cars will break down at some point. Its inevitable. Cars need constant maintenance as well. Thus, there will always be a demand for a skilled auto mechanic for as long as our society uses the automobile for its main mode of transportation.

For me its not all about wealth and property. I just want to make a comfortable living. I dont need 4 houses, a load of cars and boats to be happy. Life isnt about your career or what you own. There is so much more to happiness than what you own

> Justinian I wrote:

> Key,

1. You can not graduate at any accredited United States institution of Higher Education with a D average. Maybe with a 2.0 average, but your options then are limited because many majors won't accept applicants with an average below 2.5.
2. I said education "suggests aptitude." You have raised exceptions, but not demonstrated how education and vocational aptitude are not correlated. With a related concept, IQ, there are examples of college graduates with an IQ below 90. That does not mean that any mentally handicapped individual can graduate from college, nor does it imply that graduates are often mentally handicapped. As a matter of fact, most graduates have an IQ that is superior.

A death in the family.  Drugs.  Being a complete cheater, and not doing the work yourself.  Once your in from high grades from highschool, doesn't mean your still going to get high grades in college or universities.  Some colleges really don't give a damn about the grade, they only care about the money.  We now have certain congressional members in the House of Representatives, which we are just now learning...plagarized their doctorates in college.  They didn't do the work.  They copied the work from someone else.  They didn't get caught until decades later.  Even some NASA scientists got C in astronomy.  I'm glad they got a job at NASA, but that shows they were more prepared to work harder, or got a favorable review from a coleague.

As for IQ...most of the tests I found were, not just answering the questions correctly, but answering the questions correctly within a fixed amount of time.  My IQ I would have to say was average considering the number of tests I've taken, and not all of them were the same.  In one I scored 72, and in another I scored 114....IQ tests mean jack.  I have an uncanny ability to figure out how something works electronically without intsructions within 5-10 minutes on average.  Whereas a college level puke could take a couple of hours pushing buttons and flipping switches.  Not everyone's brains are wired the same.  Then again...I heard alcohol kills brain cells while in school attempting to learn.

But as I was saying.  It's presumptive to believe that a Degree, Diploma, Graduation, from a higher institute of learning, will equate to getting a job after school.  It plain, and simply, does not. 

Does america need any more Business Managers?  Not really, unless you intend to start up your own business.  But the market is FULL of business managers with and without jobs.  Don't need any more.

Does america need any more Political Analysts?  ...Seriously?  The only people that are going to hire you are those groups that work for either the Democrats or the Republicans, which means you do nothing more than fix numbers to make your side look good.  Do we need someone to do "Numbers fixing"?  I don't think so.

Does america need any more rocket scientists?  Geeze I don't know, they just decommisioned the space shuttle program.  I'm going to have to say no.

Does america need Care Providers?  Doctors, nurses....you bet, but....there's always a but, with the cost cutting of employees in hospitals nation wide...you may be in for a shock when you graduate.  Recently found out my mom had gone in for surgery, well the guy that did the surgery took off.  Disappeared.  She went in for a follow up checkup, and it turns out, the sucker may have put her under, cut open an incision...and that's as far as he went.  Because according to her X-rays...the operation never took place.  She's been paying the hospital for surgery, that may have never taken place.  We're a bit pissed, not only with t he hospital....and the doctor that disappeared....but for the college that accredited this person and gave him a diploma.

There are those that do not deserve to have diploma's.  You can still get diploma, for faking it.

Don't be a wimp!  Argue over the minor nitty gritty details!  X(

> Justinian I wrote:

> Key,

So you are saying that:

1. Overall, a college degree is over saturated.
2. Even the most reliable IQ and Aptitude tests will grossly fail to measure the economic worth of an individual.
3. There are reasons other than ability that affect academic performance.
4. The mental faculties of some people give them an uneven performance in different academic and vocational subjects.
5. Some, even prominent, people obtain their degrees by cheating.

Assuming I understand your points, then aside from some minor details, it does not appear I am disagreeing with you.

A.  College degrees are overrated.
B.  Economic worth of an individual?  Are you stating I have a price tag tattooed on my body somewhere?  What?  Economic worth?  I'm worth as much, by the amount of work I put out.  I'm a person.  To my CEO who owns the company, i'm a drain on resources if I don't put out results, hence i'm a number, not a name.
C.  There are reasons that effect the ability of acedemic performance, and I already listed those.  Death in the family.  Drugs and alcohol.  Cheating.
D.  Not all brains are wired the same.  I already stated that also.
E.  No kidding?  I thought I had already stated that people cheat or plagarize their material.  But they still got jobs, and in some cases, very high paying jobs.  And it wasn't because of their credentials.  It's whose ass they kissed, or who they knew, or whose friend knew who.  Say that 10 times, ten times fast.

Yay, I like people that agree with me.  Except Einstein, he always chooses the opposite side of whatever you state, just for the arguements sake.  Devils advocate crap.

The question should have been more like a poll.  True or false, a diploma = a job.  The answer would be False.

I love having fun with people in college that argue with me on that crap.  It makes me feel better about myself, for haveing a decent, but not high paying job, and I have a highschool diploma.

Also, just because you enter the army, learn a skill, does not mean you'll find a job AFTER you get out of the military service either.  You studied as a nuclear engineer on a submarine, WOW....so what?  It's not the same piece of machinery that helps produce energy on land, in your home state, and doesn't mean you'll get a job at a nuclear reactor. And no.  The Navy will not retrain you for a different job outside your CHOSEN field, before you leave service.  I was unemployed for six months in 1992-1993, after I got out.  After six months, I was back scrubbing dishes at my old job that I had left to join military service.  I was in communications.  You figure you'd need someone to check phones, service lines, or answer a phone.  Nope.  Apparently that job is for WOMEN.  Because only women can be secrataries.  Talk about chauvinistic, sexist putrid, bullcrap.

> Noir wrote:

> Just start working with computers, IT-Support will be needed om major scale

I disagree with that completely.  There are so many people out there with computer science and other computer related degrees that are unable to find work.   The computer/IT field has already had it's peak for now and is on a decline.  Even though technology is growing, so are the ways to support it.  You used to have whole departments of IT workers, now many companies have reduced their numbers to bare minimum due to it being easier to maintain the servers and computers. Much of the server work can be done remotely now.  It's a flooded field with weakening demand atm.

Lets be honest.  The world needs burger flippers and ditch diggers.  Dishes need to be washed.  Need line cooks.  Need grocery baggers, cashiers, and stock boys & girls.

Your all talking about, "Need to go to University to study a field that everyone else is studying."

Let's break that down into something so easy, a college level puke caveman can understand.  Your going to college or university.  Let's say you have 30 people in your classes, that are studying the same damn thing you are.  And chances are they are going to be going after the same job you are, after graduation.  You have 1 in 30 chance, along with the rest of your class, to gainfully land the job that you wanted.  Add more than 1-4 colleges, and 20-150 community colleges within your state, averaging 1-20 students per community college.  Your looking at 3,000+ people after your job.

And that's all in one State.  That's not including those students in other states which may move to your state to look for that job.

I don't think any of you really, truelly understand the job market.  This doesn't include the current economic crisis, in which millions of americans were layed off work in the last three years.  The same several million americans which may have the same job skills currently, that you are now learning about.

So does a college level diploma mean your going to get a job?

The answer is not only no, but HELL NO!  Wake up and smell the coffee.

I meant "art" as in visual arts like painting, not a BA. 

even painting is an artform in itself zarf. you dont just study how to paint, but the history that goes into it. the form, shape and colouring to a particular painting.

art is just not painting etiher. sculpture, drawing, sketching, using different mediums, experimenting with media, different types of paper. visual arts is a broad topic.