1 (edited by Kollop 20-Sep-2011 17:36:29)

Topic: Is pop too expensive at start?

The last 3 rounds where my fams had a really good start having an eco lead by 30 to 50% over other fams, were with inactive poppers.
My first reaction was to say, OMG if we had an active popper, round would be already finished...

But now I start to think that it was due to the fact that we had not supported a popper.

Start of the round is like the start of a race, if it's fast u should keep ur speed all the round, discourage opponents etc...

A popper needs early plts to make pop start, needs lot of iron but produces poor, needs lot of food when MFs instead of farms could be invested in CFs that have a really fast return on investment.

It often takes like 3-4 weeks for a popper to reach  a CF banker income that eats 5-10% his food.

Even if the popper started with CFs and turns slowly to pop, he has many plts that a CF banker could have OB to 100% with return on investment very fast that will be useful to build resourcers, fleet for attackers, early portals etc.

A popper jump usually needs many days of a full fam savings, then a food jump...all that could have gone to pay fleet for attackers to make 100 early plts in the round, that CF bankers will use and payback the fleet jump many times more than what the popper jump would have given.

I don't say that CF banking makes more cash than a popper, numbers say the contrary. But same as when u play Starcraft blitz tactic > infra tactic.
I mean u build cheap buildings that produce fast, u make lot of early plts fighting other fams investing on long term investment. U finish expo phase with 500 more plts than others, whatever the income of their popper he can't beat 500 more CF planets and his fam can't beat the spread the fast fam took.

At this point I think that one of the CF bankers that stayed CF/RCs can turn pop and in less than 10 days can produce the same as other bigger poppers.

I had Torqez once in my fam where our popper sucked, that decided to turn pop mid round after a start CF/RC (if i remember well) and in few days he was making 30m gc with 250 plts.
He produced lot for cheap start of round, then once we were owning the map he started to make huge cash to prepare for big nap wars.

Would be nice to know what was his infra before turning pop and how he did it, even if i have my idea (I would say 200% CFs 300% RCs, huge eco% and cons%, add like 50 LQs everywhere, when pop is nearly full raze RCs, add like 70 LQs everywhere, when pop is nearly full raze all CFs FB Lqs, OB 100% LQs, when they come in OB 300% immediately with TOs, ur cons% is still amazing, u dont have to kill pop, ur empire size is low. If bank allows u immediatly go to 500 or 700%) and in 7-10 days u pass from 5m gc to 30m gc with good cons%, low empire size, no fleet and pop to kill then u just have to fund welfare and keep eco high.

'Success! The realm of Genesis has been reduced to dust! Our forces are leaving the planet though, as it is scheduled for demolition to make way for a new hyperspace bypass.'

Re: Is pop too expensive at start?

inb4 noir posting

<parrot> there is also the odd  possibility that tryme is an idiot
<KT> possibility?
<genesis> tryme is a bit of an idiot
<Torqez> bit?

Re: Is pop too expensive at start?

inb4 Torqez posting

"Heh heh heh heh heh heh!"

Metrex

Re: Is pop too expensive at start?

inb4 BC Cougar posting

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Is pop too expensive at start?

Now im almost tempted to reply tongue

LORD HELP OREGON

Re: Is pop too expensive at start?

Well ill let the trollers get their wish big_smile

Basicly this question has been raised a ton of times, and there is alot of merit to it. I believe PP and his dynasty with kagar was the pioneers of scrapping population bankers in favour of safer quicker and more versatile CF bankers. I agree with your analysis in some aspects Kollop, but there is also a couple of buts.

Yes you will have a quicker start, and yes you will be able to put more resoruces into early attacking. The question then however becomes, how much are you getting out of this? If you can manage to pull 500 planets ahead of other families while keepoing your bankers safe, then yes sure it can work!

With a galaxy full of families with pop bankers tho, will you be able to knock them all down? Its like fighting a cockroach invasion, you beat one down, another one pops up. What will work out best in each individual round depends on so many factors that its hard to make a general rule. I would say that you should analyze your own family. Can it pull off massive agressiveness and get gains? Or will you just get drawn into conflicts and have no real progress? Fighting with planetary gains can be very nice early on, but fighting itself is very destructive, and if you are in a locked down situation with nukes and ping pongs, the pop banker families will fly by you before you know it!

About the

LORD HELP OREGON

Re: Is pop too expensive at start?

haha just could'nt resist

~*✠ ]PW[ Forever ✠*~

Re: Is pop too expensive at start?

I recall a friend running early pop one round and me running Cfs. By third week we were making about the same income, course, I was running cf's only, but now I'm doing cf/to strat, but at the first month being done, he had over 1 mil income and I was 800k. Course, this was back in andro and we werent playing an overall strat, just teams... But I feel that if you focus on cf bankers at the beginning, devoting a percentage to a pop banker to be early pop, you may get it to pay off if they are active enough to monitor pop AND market. Playing the market will make the biggest difference as you will net more resources to build with early on

Insane Lemming of Drama Queens and Other Hyperbolical People

1431 ftw

Re: Is pop too expensive at start?

As I said poppers make much more cash than CFers, my point is just that a popper wastes plts at starts that could make good cash for cheap and fast developpement of the familly.
I want to test a fam where the future popper doesn't turn until before he reaches 250 plts and turns pop only during a peaceful period where u can afford long term investment, that should be cheap since he prepared for it (good cons with RCs and low nw and doesnt have to kill pop and fleet).

'Success! The realm of Genesis has been reduced to dust! Our forces are leaving the planet though, as it is scheduled for demolition to make way for a new hyperspace bypass.'

Re: Is pop too expensive at start?

Well Kollop i understand that there might be a need for a thread like this, but for my own account, i know that i calculate the return on my investments before i make them. And when i switch to pop, it is profitable. This is usually when CFers are hitting 100-200% OB, but can be way before 250 planets.

LORD HELP OREGON

Re: Is pop too expensive at start?

Pop start CAN work and it worked for me in about rd 9. However it can only work if you gain planets at an alarmingly fast pace - I recall having over 300 within 2 weeks. If the planets arrive too slowly you are having to OB too much with TOs before you can make LQs.

Re: Is pop too expensive at start?

Im trying it atm, but since im playing alone it wont be optimal compared to having a team tongue

LORD HELP OREGON

Re: Is pop too expensive at start?

Done that before tongue Was terribly slow until i found a partner. I just question the value of starting out pop based. Increased costs, increased food demand. Requires building more HFs instead of MFs/RSs/CFs. Just seems to make more sense to convert later in the round to me

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Re: Is pop too expensive at start?

im so gone make a fam with noir and kollop next round tongue LOL

Airwing

Re: Is pop too expensive at start?

what u up to now tongue

LORD HELP OREGON

16 (edited by Dimpel 28-Oct-2011 17:35:14)

Re: Is pop too expensive at start?

> Noir wrote:

> Im trying it atm, but since im playing alone it wont be optimal compared to having a team tongue

_

I started off as popper in pw (round is short) and it paid off.. was the biggest and income heaviest banker for the most time of the round till we got killed

you just need a family trusting into your skills and pay you a lot of resources..

you just can do it with a good coordinated and working family



Edit: i did this start a few rounds back

Leonardo, Michelangelo, Donatello, Raphael

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_Mu … ja_Turtles

17 (edited by Cardboard Robot 28-Oct-2011 17:42:31)

Re: Is pop too expensive at start?

i think the last few rounds have definitely proved that pop in pw is worth it.


Aside from that, starting pop or just switching early has proven to pay off.


in pw:

Few rounds ago, IC Snakes: Noir was top banker till the fam collapsed (I think you did pop start?)
Last round, Carebears: h4e was top banker all round, switched early.

but yeah as mentioned before, you need your fam to dedicate to your growth entirely.

Maar doodslaan deed hij niet, want tussen droom en daad,
Staan wetten in de weg en praktische bezwaren,
En ook weemoedigheid, die niemand kan verklaren,
En die des avonds komt, wanneer men slapen gaat.

Re: Is pop too expensive at start?

Well what ur saying there is OK, but on the other hand you say you need the fam to give you alot of resources... Makes u big, maybe not profitable tho

LORD HELP OREGON

Re: Is pop too expensive at start?

maybe all these resources could have been used to win that war where u got killed tongue

'Success! The realm of Genesis has been reduced to dust! Our forces are leaving the planet though, as it is scheduled for demolition to make way for a new hyperspace bypass.'

Re: Is pop too expensive at start?

oh that war was lost by bad timing, a pussy resourcer and a BIG tactical mistake tongue not because we didn't have enough stuff!

Maar doodslaan deed hij niet, want tussen droom en daad,
Staan wetten in de weg en praktische bezwaren,
En ook weemoedigheid, die niemand kan verklaren,
En die des avonds komt, wanneer men slapen gaat.