26 (edited by Zarf BeebleBrix 14-Aug-2011 23:01:23)

Re: A thought on how to fix the Market

> Einstein wrote:

> To Zarf:

There are computers hooked up to the main servers for the indexes that are run by not day traders, not hour traders, not minute, but microsecond traders.

They push the values of stocks up as much as they can with algorithms designed to detect more closely what the market may take, or designed to understand other peoples algorithms. There is decent evidence that such systems can indeed prop up a market item against the actual trend. Oil has been proof of this, as might be gold to a limited extent (Though now that I have talked to a large number of conservatives I understand why the price still grows... they are buying as much as they can, and hoarding it for the collapse of our nation, at least in my region this is so).

These companies that use these super fast trading computers rarely fail to make a profit. Down or up, they make money. They also in my view force prices up on a large number of issues and with them slowed we could see artificially high prices come down to normal.




No, you're misunderstanding my question:

Assume, Flint, that you were the computer.  What is the process which you take in your trades which result in the price being driven up and you walking out with a profit?  What would trades by this computer look like which would distinguish them from day traders, which would make them a unique problem?

Make Eyes Great Again!

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Re: A thought on how to fix the Market

"Now you are beginning to understand. Although 25% taxes will handicap the investment potential of both individuals, the one earning $100,000 is handicapped more. The reason is that the person earning $100,000 spends a greater percentage of their disposable income on consumer goods, unless the person earning $100 million is frivolous to the extreme. Assuming the person earning $100 million is a frivolous spender, spending $20 million a year, their disposable income for investment would be 55%. For the person earning $100,000, they would have to cut their spending to $20,000 to use 55% of their disposable income on investment. While $20,000 is doable with considerable sacrifices the elite won't need to make, it illustrates just how the current tax system adds to the inherent investment advantages the elite enjoy."

Tough crap.  You have no right to spend a % of your income that you'd match if you were 10X richer than you are at present.

"Without a tax system that taxes the elite more, wealth concentrates in the hands of a few. When that happens, Republics evolve in to overt Oligarchies. The highest income earners then use their power to buy politicians to give them additional legal market advantages, and they get away with it. The bottom line is that money is power. If you want power to be broadly distributed (not equally, broadly), then the elite have to be taxed at higher rates."

By enabling the State to "equalize" the economy you have concentrated power in the hands of the few. Since this policy seems to involve only a) the really rich and B) the somewhat better off, the average person will not be permitted to interfere with its operation.

"As a Legal Positivist, I logically reject your claim that such taxation is theft. But for simplicity, I will tell you I don't care if it's "theft" or not. What matters is that there is no Plutocratic Oligarchy, and if "theft" is necessary to prevent such an evil then so be it. The ends justify the means."

And thus you wil create Socialist Ogliarchy, and I will cease to care about "assassination" or "conspiracy" or "aiding and abetting a fugitive".

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: A thought on how to fix the Market

""By enabling the State to "equalize" the economy you have concentrated power in the hands of the few. Since this policy seems to involve only a) the really rich and B) the somewhat better off, the average person will not be permitted to interfere with its operation""

unfortunately income taxes wont help stimulate our economy fully, this would also have to be followed up by govt. job programs ect. taxing a business owners income only means they have less to spend on expanding. this also means that "new money" rich is but a dream and impossible while currently rich are able to still enforce power.

i know this would never happen or be american in any way but i feel that taxing a persons SAVINGS after a certain ammount, say 2mil. would better help even the feilds AND cause major incentive to spend cash.

though even if this did happen, swiss banks ect would quickly become a common practice again. i just took abunch of pain killers so don't fry my ideas too hard tongue

Re: A thought on how to fix the Market

Our Tax System Explained: Bar Stool Economics

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do.
The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. 'Since you are all such good customers,' he said, 'I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20.' Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free.
But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?'
They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.
So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.
'I only got a dollar out of the $20,'declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,' but he got $10!'
'Yeah, that's right,' exclaimed the fifth man. 'I only saved a dollar, too.
It's unfair that he got ten times more than I got' 'That's true!!' shouted the seventh man. 'Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!'
'Wait a minute,' yelled the first four men in unison. 'We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!'
The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.
The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!
And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

So I told the cop, "No YOU'RE driving under the influence... of being a JERK!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFjjO_lhf9c

Re: A thought on how to fix the Market

DP,
I found something similar in a communist pamphlet once, with exact the same story. Pity I cannot find it back. In there logic, the rich man could do whatever he want. He had the same income still, but the others didn't.

Think about it:
This is why left leaning economics always win this kind of debates. It DOES NOT need to be fair!! It needs to be effective before it can be fair, or it is not fair at all because their is no wealth to share. If a system can be effective with everybody earning the same, many people would be communist. But it isn't. People only work if they see profit. They are inventive and the market takes out bad idees and keeps the good. I know this is simplified and only true in a perfect world but the idea still stands.

Re: A thought on how to fix the Market

as a sidenote, I'm starting to like Einstein more and more as of late. He stoped spamming the forum, and even brings forth good ideas. Seems like he learned a lot by starting his political career.

Re: A thought on how to fix the Market

Actually Little Paul you can see I am posting only half as much... mostly due to forum inactivity. Honestly I think it is you who has changed, in your views and your attitudes.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

33 (edited by Little Paul 17-Aug-2011 17:24:59)

Re: A thought on how to fix the Market

"Actually Little Paul you can see I am posting only half as much... mostly due to forum inactivity."
Actually it looks more like 1/4 in quantity but 4 times as good in quality. tongue

"Honestly I think it is you who has changed, in your views and your attitudes."
I was still young when I started IC more then a decade ago. Maybe at the start I was more left leaning then right back then. But you can say for at least 6 to 8 years my ideas in general haven't changed that spectacular. I still have my left ideas (the "death" tax is ok if done right) and my right: to much taxes kill the econ, especially taxes on labour.

Further on I always have been the sole European on this forum to say US might not be 100% perfect but all other possible world leaders would be far worse for everybody.

Re: A thought on how to fix the Market

The only good liberal is a naked woman

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: A thought on how to fix the Market

The only good conservative is an old man angrily shaking his fist at the sky because the clouds need to cover up more...

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: A thought on how to fix the Market

Global markets are tied together like a forest of trees might be tied together.  The only way to fix the market is to untie the trees from each other and let each market stand on its own, and so when a storm hits only a few trees will get blown over, not the whole !@#$%0damned forest.

Re: A thought on how to fix the Market

Xeno you are ignoring certain truths right now.


1) Oil

2) Rice

3) Tree's

4) Electronics

5) Doctors

6) Loaners and those who were loaned to

7) Tourism



To the extent that certain objects are most heavily tied to certain regions or nations, and that some of the higher quality products are exclusive to some regions and nations, you have an issue where local demand cannot find local supply. This list is far from exhaustive, but is educational. You cannot 'untie' the markets as there is local issues always. Just as cars are not made in Weed City California and that Tobacco is not grown in Alaska, you will find local shortages always, which need Regional, National, and International supply to meet the demand.

I hope this was educational for you.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: A thought on how to fix the Market

@xeno:
Much of what I want to say about that you find in this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism

Re: A thought on how to fix the Market

> Einstein wrote:



I hope this was educational for you.




Spare me the flame fest, will you?

Maybe they should start smoking pot in Alaska instead of tobacco...?

Re: A thought on how to fix the Market

> Little Paul wrote:

> @xeno:
Much of what I want to say about that you find in this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism


Could you be more specific?

Re: A thought on how to fix the Market

Dude I was trying to be polite and kind. I am offering a dissenting view, and giving validation to it.

Can you understand?

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

42 (edited by Zarf BeebleBrix 20-Aug-2011 14:35:12)

Re: A thought on how to fix the Market

> xeno syndicated wrote:

> > Little Paul wrote:

> @xeno:
Much of what I want to say about that you find in this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism


Could you be more specific?



Actually, it's pretty much what Flint said before you decided to ignore it.

If Japan, for example, were to try to be self-sufficient, it would have serious problems.  Agriculture wouldn't exactly be friendly to them.  The country has little, if any, oil resources of note.  In addition, the natural resources necessary to even produce technology (various rare earth metals, for example... ask Little Paul about this one) would be unavailable to the country.  Long story short, they'd be back to a pre-industrial era.

Historically, drives toward self-sufficiency have had drastic consequences for the world.  European nations in the 1500's subscribed to the theory of mercantilism (self sufficiency, the drive toward being a net exporter).  As a result, European nations were driven to search for territory in Africa, Asia, and the Americas to expand their own production base and gain an advantage in the trade field by forcing their colonies to only trade through their overlord.  The result: 400 years of European imperialism, the colonization and subjugation of millions of people, and plenty of colonial wars, ranging from the Seven Year's War, American Revolution, War of 1812, the Napoleonic Wars, the Franco-Prussian War... there's quite an extensive list!  You see, when people are dead set on the idea that they need to produce everything themselves, and they are unable to efficiently produce everything themselves... their only alternative is to find another nation which can more efficiently produce the resource themselves and conquer that region in order to make it part of "themselves."

Another example is WW2.  Japan had an initial drive toward regional imperialism, but nothing expanding to global levels early in the war.  Then, in retaliation against Japan's expansion, the US placed an embargo on exports of oil to Japan.  Japan had no oil resources of its own, so unless it obtained resources, it was doomed.  The result?  Japan was forced to switch tactics and directly attack the United States with the hope of securing some access to American oil reserves.  Self sufficiency drives lead to resource wars.

Trade fixes this issue.  In the current economic climate, Japan still has very little natural resources of its own.  However, it's probably become stronger in the global political arena than it ever was during WW2.  Japan is able to import its supply of rice, wheat, meats, steel, rare earth metals, and other materials.  Japan can then use its skills to do what it does best (manufacturing) to produce resources for global export.  By manufacturing for the world, Japan is able to take advantage of economies of scale (the fact that the more goods any particular factory makes, the less the expenses will be for that particular good at that particular plant, up to its maximum capacity) to maximize its production.  In contrast, if other nations were to try and be self-sufficient in this area, they would each need to build their own smaller, less efficient factory to produce those goods.

Japan has been able to become a global economic center, despite having hardly any natural resources, because Japan can focus on cultivating the resources which are most productive in Japan (its manufacturing base and a well-educated population), rather than attempting to obtain production facilities in resources which Japan does not possess.  I would say this has allowed Japan to be more powerful today than it ever was during WW2, even considering that Japan has only a skeleton of a military.


From a perspective of pure economics, let's look at a theoretical example to demonstrate this issue:

Assume two countries exist, Oiltopia and Carland.  Carland has a factory in place which would be able to supply cars for 100 people.  Oiltopia has easily accessible oil reserves able to supply oil for 100 people.  That is, Carland has a comparative advantage in producing cars, while Oiltopia has a comparative advantage in producing oil.  If these nations were interconnected through trade, Carland could exchange cars for oil to supply both populations.

Alternatively, let's assume Oiltopia wanted to produce its own cars, stop trading with Carland, and become self-sufficient.  Oiltopia would need to invest cash into building a factory in Oiltopia to build 50 cars.  The development costs money.  Then Oiltopia would need to train people in car manufacturing who previously had no experience in the industry.  That costs money.  The final factory won't be able to take advantage of the economies of scale of the Carland factory, having larger fixed costs... that will make Oiltopia's cars more expensive.
Once Oiltopia actually gets that going, we now have a system where, combined, Oiltopia and Carland could produce 150 cars, but only have the demand for producing 100 cars.  The result, then, is that Carland's factory will only produce at half the rate it normally would, driving up the cost of its cars as well.

Meanwhile, Carland will need to start supplying its own oil.  Even if Carland has oil resources that are as easily accessible as Oiltopia's resources, Carland would need to invest the cash to find oil and extract it (that costs money), and they would need to train people into the new positions.  Just like with the car factory, Oiltopia would have to leave half its oil production idle due to a lack of demand, and both countries would see a rise in prices of oil due to decreasing economies of scale on both parts.

Both of these assume ideal scenarios for self-sufficiency, however.  In reality, Carland will most likely have oil resources that, if available, aren't as easily accessible as Oiltopia's resources, driving up its own costs of oil production.  Both Oiltopia and Carland would have problems establishing new training systems for industries with which they aren't familiar.  In effect, both countries will need to reinvent the wheel.  Meanwhile, their counterpart would have a fully matured industry that could have provided those resources, but now just sits idle with half its production going to waste.

This scenario explanation didn't even get into the issue of natural resources (such as rare earth metals), which distribute comparative advantages to nations that can't easily be duplicated (although it demonstrates my point, manufacturing is probably a terrible example because it's much easier to build a new factory than it is to find a new energy source).




Little Paul, does that sufficiently summarize your argument?

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The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: A thought on how to fix the Market

Zarf wrote:
>Actually, it's pretty much what Flint said before you decided to ignore it.

Thanks for the acknowledgement smile


Xeno no one here has tried to berate you, or talk down to you. I am merely attempting to give an informed Politicians Political insight in the topic to you.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: A thought on how to fix the Market

Hey Zarf.. I need a way to get your email

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

45 (edited by Zarf BeebleBrix 19-Aug-2011 23:48:10)

Re: A thought on how to fix the Market

You've had my email since last year... tongue

But ah hell, I set up a new one just for IC purposes... [email protected].  There ya go.  smile

You can also find me in IRC pretty much whenever.  tongue

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: A thought on how to fix the Market

@xeno:
"Could you be more specific?"
Sorry for the link but the  explanation I tended to give was very long.

I'll try to summarize it:
You said:
"Global markets are tied together like a forest of trees might be tied together.  The only way to fix the market is to untie the trees from each other and let each market stand on its own, and so when a storm hits only a few trees will get blown over, not the whole !@#$%0damned forest."

The idea you propose (I could be wrong in my interpretation tough) is that markets should "stand" on their own. I translate that as making sure your markets are independent so to speak by making sure you always have enough resources and you never tied up on other markets as suppliers either by having it yourself, or by having many. Suppliers could be suppliers of resources but also suppliers of money, military aid etc etc. Most of this ideas have been specifically popular during the period of mercantilism.

If you're interested in a debate about the subject, we better open a new thread.

Re: A thought on how to fix the Market

edit: didn't read what Zarf wrote.

@zarf:
Yes, it does. smile

Re: A thought on how to fix the Market

@ Zarf, Little Paul, Einstein

I understand the perspective and why traditionally, conventionally, economies are supposedly inter-dependent.  I understand that that is how it has always been.  I ask, though, how has it been working out?  It has caused many needless wars, famines, disasters, etc. over the millenia.  It is, in general, dangerous to depend on inter-dependence in general.

Re: A thought on how to fix the Market

Xeno, could you give some examples of wars, famines, disasters, etc., which were caused by trade interdependence?  I've provided counter-examples above, whereas your argument so far is just assertion.  Perhaps we could actually analyze your side of the issue if we know the circumstances we're talking about.

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: A thought on how to fix the Market

^

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)