Biggest concern i point out quickly is why not start out popper, if you end up razing your CFs and RCs ..

You need to keep in mind that you can aid out your leftover cash and resoruces, thus the waste can be reduced by alot..

Others can build while your pop is growing

What i mean is that you are only considering one empire.

What if you can just aid out at start, and wait for pop to grow, and then when it fits, you recieve a jump..

The same empire doesnt have to spend all its income  as its produced

Ok your post was fairly hard to understand, but i will explain it more carefully.

Pop bankers have the most porfitable growth of all bankers when doing it correctly, however because of the dependency on actually having population on planets, a pop bankers can only really grow at a certain speed without damaging his profitability

Many pop bankers will try to force growth to go quicker than what is optimal, (they might not like to aid out, or just plan stupid (who knows)), by spending too much cash too early on early exploration, or going to bizarre TO/LQ rations (above 60%+ TOs) because they dont have pop

Therefore i would advise poppers to have patience, the growth of population is exponential, because you are not on top of your fam early doesnt mean you are doing something wrong. You can always get passed planets later and when your planets have decent and even population you can make huge jumps towards incomes that a CF banker can never achieve.

If we assume the following market prices
Iron 11
Food 11
Endu 20

The cost of a CF is 250 with an income of 8 giving a repayment in 31 ticks (after the 5 ticks build time)

The cost of 1 building in a 50/50 mix of LQ/TO is 440 with an income of 21,67 and food cost of 3,5 totalling on 18,17 giving a repayment in 24 ticks (after the 12 ticks average build time)

The per tick return on investment is 8/250 = 3,2% for the CF banker and 18,17/440 = 4,1% for the popper

Proving that if managed optimally a pop banker is more profitable than the CF banker right from the start of the round, the issue is just to not make bad decisions as a pop banker, and dont overspend to force your early growth.

Later in the round when you add science and overbuild into the equation, the income will go even mor ein favour of the popper, but ofcourse this is allready common knowledge

/me deletes post and admits not knowing much about pop banking

pop start is totally viable as long as u are not the only banker in the family.

I will retort later when i have time, but just by readin your fisrt 2 sentence you show me that you are not understanding what i am saying..

You are saying the popper is bad cause he has to wait, while i say, thats np, let him wait build someone else in the meantime.... We can even use that popper to do TO trick if we want.. And the 52 ticks is on new planets, they can be used for TOs no problem...

For ur other calc ill look later, but stop using the 52 ticks for popper, it makes u lok bad

you start as a pop banker because the fam can focus resources on the cf bankers. since at the start u cannot build 4 cf bankers at the same time.

lets not using the 1 empire vs 1 empire calc and do a 3 empire simulation

3 cf banker vs 2 cf banker + 1 pop banker using pop start

noir u might wanna do the simulation

> Rin wrote:

> you start as a pop banker because the fam can focus resources on the cf bankers. since at the start u cannot build 4 cf bankers at the same time.

Well I guess it depends on howmany players you have in your family and howmuch starting resources you have. But yes, most of the time it is impossible to FB 4 CF bankers that's why people use the 7 TO's strategy. But I can also assure you that FB 4 pop bankers or 3 CF and 1 pop banker is even more impossible, infact 250 LQ's = 458 CF almost 2 FB CF bankers. If anything, your argument only supports the CF starting startegy since I proved in the previous post how fast a CF banker can grow.

> Rin wrote:

> lets not using the 1 empire vs 1 empire calc and do a 3 empire simulation

3 cf banker vs 2 cf banker + 1 pop banker using pop start

noir u might wanna do the simulation

As for your other post:
3 CF bankers = 2 CF bankers + 1 Pop bankers

subsract 2 CF bankers from both sides and you get
CF banker solo empire vs Pop banker  solo empire

So mathematically, it should not make any difference but perhaps I am overlooking some factors so if you or noir could elaborate......

First of all, let me say that I am thorougly enjoying this discussion.

As for your 'simulation' of the popbanker, you made 2 assumptions:
- The 136 starting LQ's have maximum population at tick 0
- According to your calculation, when one jumps from 136 infra to 174 infra, the population is maxed in 1 tick

Because of those 2 assumptions, your simulation is invalid. You made the exact same assumption in your previous post, with the exponential growth of a popbanker which is too incorrect.

A more realistic approach:
The population of a popbanker grows from tick 1 till tick 50. Meaning that with 136 LQ's at tick 1, the pop will only have the income of base population and at tick 50 he will have the max population. Every 5 ticks of saving, if the popbanker uses that cash to build more LQ's, then new population will start to grow. This population too grows from the tick it is build till it is maxed. Meaning that the total population= old pop + newly build LQ's. If we continue with this principle we get the following growth:

Tick    Income Pop    Population    Infra            Food Con             Food Cost
1    351,6666667    10550            136        1055             211
2    371,0083333    11130,25            136        1113,025             222,605
3    391,4137917    11742,41375    136        1174,241375    234,848275
4    412,9415502    12388,24651    136        1238,824651    247,7649301
5    435,6533355    13069,60006    136        1306,960006    261,3920013
6    459,6142689    13788,42807    136        1378,842807    275,7685614
7    484,8930537    14546,79161    136        1454,679161    290,9358322
8    511,5621717    15346,86515    136        1534,686515    306,937303
9    539,6980911    16190,94273    136        1619,094273    323,8188547
10    569,3814861    17081,44458    136        1708,144458    341,6288917
11    600,6974679    18020,92404    136        1802,092404    360,4184807
12    633,7358286    19012,07486    136        1901,207486    380,2414972
13    668,5912992    20057,73897    140        2005,773897    401,1547795
14    705,3638206    21160,91462    140        2116,091462    423,2182924
15    744,1588307    22324,76492    140        2232,476492    446,4952984
16    871,7542331    26152,62699    140        2615,262699    523,0525399
17    919,7007159    27591,02148    140        2759,102148    551,8204296
18    970,2842553    29108,52766    146        2910,852766    582,1705532
19    1023,649889    30709,49668    146        3070,949668    614,1899336
20    1079,950633    32398,519    146        3239,8519    647,97038
21    1269,347918    38080,43754    146        3808,043754    761,6087509
22    1339,162054    40174,86161    146        4017,486161    803,4972321
23    1412,815967    42384,479    156        4238,4479    847,6895799
24    1490,520845    44715,62534    156        4471,562534    894,3125068
25    1572,499491    47174,98473    156        4717,498473    943,4996947
26    1875,65363    56269,60889    156        5626,960889    1125,392178
27    1978,814579    59364,43738    156        5936,443738    1187,288748
28    2087,649381    62629,48144    168        6262,948144    1252,589629
29    2202,470097    66074,10292    168        6607,410292    1321,482058
30    2323,605953    69708,17858    168        6970,817858    1394,163572
31    2711,40428    81342,1284    168        8134,21284    1626,842568
32    2860,531515    85815,94546    168        8581,594546    1716,318909
33    3017,860749    90535,82246    190        9053,582246    1810,716449
34    3183,84309    95515,2927    190        9551,52927    1910,305854
35    3358,95446    100768,6338    190        10076,86338    2015,372676
36    4020,363622    120610,9087    190        12061,09087    2412,218173
37    4241,483621    127244,5086    190        12724,45086    2544,890173
38    4474,76522    134242,9566    222        13424,29566    2684,859132
39    4720,877307    141626,3192    222        14162,63192    2832,526384
40    4980,525559    149415,7668    222        14941,57668    2988,315336
41    5947,787798    178433,634    222        17843,3634    3568,672679
42    6274,916127    188247,4838    222        18824,74838    3764,949676
43    6620,036514    198601,0954    269        19860,10954    3972,021909
44    6984,138523    209524,1557    269        20952,41557    4190,483114
45    7368,266141    221047,9842    269        22104,79842    4420,959685
46    7773,520779    233205,6234    269        23320,56234    4664,112467
47    9219,397755    276581,9327    269        27658,19327    5531,638653
48    9726,464632    291793,939    339        29179,3939    5835,878779
49    10261,42019    307842,6056    339        30784,26056    6156,852112
50    10825,7983    324773,9489    339        32477,39489    6495,478978

Cost LQ
440 gc

Pop  13    Pop 18    Pop 23    Pop 28    Pop 33    Pop 38    Pop 43    Pop 48   
3 ticks    3 ticks    3 ticks    3 ticks    3 ticks    3 ticks    4 ticks    3 tick   
2600    3900    6500    7800    14300    20800    30550    45500   
                                                                                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                
                                                                                                
Sum $
1760
2565,149072
4675
5224
9717,087179
14097,24559
20816,44423
30807,40452

The Sum $ tells us howmuch the banker has after 5 ticks. Divide this number by the cost of LQ and you get a new number of LQ's after 8 ticks. This number of LQ's have a maximum population, which written under "Pop 13". Also, the time it takes to grow that population is written in the same section. Add that population with the old one and you get a new population. From the income, the food cost is subtracted which is calculated by 0,2*consumed food.

A CF banker has 20k income after tick 50 and the Pop banker has 11k income. As you can conclude for yourself, the CF banker earns double the money of the popbanker if he starts with the same resources. In reality this difference is even bigger as the popbanker does not start with a population of 10000 and no empire cost is taken into consideration. Both those factor play a significant role. It takes 56 ticks for a population to reach 10000 at SOR. So in reality, the popbanker would reach this stage at tick 106. If the CF banker continues to double his income every 24 ticks, then at tick 106 he would have an income of more than 80k per tick!!! That is 8x the amount a popbanker makes at that tick if both start with the same resources.

With these calculation I believe the discussion is won by me, unless you have some new exciting insight!

Edit: At some point though, the popbanker will overrule the CF banker since he needs many times less the infra to achieve the same amount of income. That is the point where OB costs will kill the CF banker and stage 3 of my strategy

The formula for calculating population:

starting population * growthfactor ^ time = new population

stating population = 500
growth factor revalon = 1,055
new population = 10000

thus:
500*1,055^x=10000

1,055^x=20

x=1,055log20=56 ticks mate

So after 56 ticks the population reaches 10k and not after 16 ticks as you claim.

Yes indeed, some factors as exploration cost and empire cost are not taken into consideration. However the general idea still applies! I am confident that even if you take those factors in consideration, CF banker will still beat popbanking at sor.

this is what you said earlier and I haven't replied to:

This is the issue Amar, you cannot just subtract them, because the team with 2 CFs and 1 popper can adapt more to the situation, When the population on the poppers planets are low on pop, he can simply aid the CF bankers and let them grow first. When his population catches up, they can start building the population banker, and with the exponential growth of population, he will eventually be catching up smile

How do you expect the popbanker to aid the CF bankers if he has no pop at the beginning and thus no income? As I said earlier, the exponential growth you calculated was not entirely correct and as I have shown in the previous post, if with the same starting resources you would use to build the CF banker, you would have 8x the income

"Still you are missing my main point tho, the fact that a constant stream of investment is not optimal in IC, coordinated jumps is the best way to grow!"

This is the first time you mentioned it lol and if you believe that the your statement would turn the tables completly than please do show.