1 (edited by Justinian I 16-Jan-2011 09:16:31)

Topic: Estate taxes concentrate wealth

The basic argument in favor of estate/inheritance taxes is that it recycles wealth. That wealth is then reinvested in to new projects developed by new and ambitious individuals. This keeps the wealth circulating and minimizes the presence of a useless aristocracy.

This argument sounds great at the surface, but in truth it concentrates wealth. In America, anyway, the elite do not have to worry about the estate taxes because they can afford the accounting teams to avoid paying it. The most they are going to pay is 10%. And by elite, I mean people who own $100 million in assets or more.

On the other hand, a person (family most likely) that owns $5 million in assets, such as a farm or small business, will be ruined by the estate taxes. To come up with $2.5 million means they must sell their assets, and most likely means losing their business.

And even if the elite actually sold half their assets to pay the estate taxes, they would most likely not be personally ruined and more easily able to recover the money lost. Losing $50 million and having $50 million left leaves you in a far better position to recover your wealth than does losing $2.5 million and having $2.5 million left, especially if there are several heirs.

Whether the elite pay the estate taxes or not, which they manage to get at a substantially reduced rate, means that the lower rich are hurt badly and the elite are only marginally harmed. Wealth effectively gets concentrated in the hands of the few. The very class that could provide competition to the elite is deprived of the opportunity to do so.

Now, the argument could be made that there should be more tax brackets. For example, a person with $5 million in assets would pay less than someone with $100 million in assets. This idea is still foolish, because the economy would be negatively impacted by members of the elite suddenly liquidizing those assets. Imagine an industrialist suddenly liquidizing $25 billion to pay estate taxes. That would have a bad bad ripple effect in the economy.

Since estate and inheritance taxes are only able to concentrate wealth, rather than recycle it, I say it is best not to have such a tax.

Re: Estate taxes concentrate wealth

Can you give an example of an extremely wealthy estate which managed to dodge the estate tax?  Otherwise, your first argument's simply conjecture.  Estate tax is different from income tax... not necessarily all the same loopholes, and not always so straightforward.

Can't really argue the second point.  However, that's not an argument against the estate tax as a whole, but rather an argument against the minimum estate value.  The question would then be "at what dollar amount would an inheritor not be ruined by an estate tax?"

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3 (edited by Justinian I 16-Jan-2011 10:29:24)

Re: Estate taxes concentrate wealth

Godwin's Law,

At least 90% of them. Wouldn't say dodged, but they paid at most 10%. But since you want an example, Paris Hilton.

The problem is that when you tax those who own hundreds of millions and billions in assets, you cause a negative ripple effect in the economy. Imagine Bill Gates' estate paying $15-25 billion. A sudden liquidation of his assets would be catastrophic. You could charge the estate gradually, but I have practical doubts that incremental payments could be paid off within a reasonable time frame in one generation and without harming the economy.

4 (edited by Justinian I 16-Jan-2011 10:57:57)

Re: Estate taxes concentrate wealth

Here's a website that details how the Walton family avoided paying any significant amount of estate taxes, and how other estates can also take advantage of similar options.

http://investor.financialcounsel.com/Articles/EstatePlanning/ARTEST0000117-FLPvsLLC.asp

Re: Estate taxes concentrate wealth

Nice source!  tongue

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Re: Estate taxes concentrate wealth

not to mention the growth of eternal corporations that don't fight off government because the officers get paid anyhow and its not their money.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Estate taxes concentrate wealth

Zarf,

Are you being sarcastic?

Anyhow, I should mention that I did not represent a family of $5 million well before someone decides to miss the point and beat the scarecrow. By 2009 levels, they would have had a taxable income of $1.5 million, and have had to pay $675,000 at an estate tax of 45%. Small time millionaires would have been less affected by 2009 levels, and the Obama administration wants to raise the estate tax ceiling to $3.5 million.

My point was that smaller millionaires effectively pay a greater percentage of estate taxes than do elites. The elites can dispose of immense amounts of wealth to hire teams of professional accountants and set up schemes that allow them to reduce their estate tax to negligible amounts. What this does is concentrate wealth because the elite are effectively not affected by the estate tax, but the lesser rich easily pay 1/4 of their net worth to the government.

Re: Estate taxes concentrate wealth

the money is taxed as it accummulates anyhow

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Estate taxes concentrate wealth

Yell,

What are you talking about?

Whose money is taxed as it accumulates?

Re: Estate taxes concentrate wealth

@justinian:
I bet he was being sarcastic, considering the name of the website.

Re: Estate taxes concentrate wealth

the guy earning the estate is taxed every year

then he dies and you tax the estate

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Estate taxes concentrate wealth

No, Justinian, wasn't being sarcastic.  Honestly wasn't expecting a source, much less a detailed legal analysis.  tongue

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Re: Estate taxes concentrate wealth

"the guy earning the estate is taxed every year

then he dies and you tax the estate
"

You tax the fact that someone else is getting the estate.

Not many people know this, but I own the first radio in Springfield. Not much on the air then, just Edison reciting the alphabet over and over. "A" he'd say; then "B." "C" would usually follow...

Re: Estate taxes concentrate wealth

the estate is the leftovers after somebody paid their "fair share" for years

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Estate taxes concentrate wealth

> Godwin's Law wrote:

> Can you give an example of an extremely wealthy estate which managed to dodge the estate tax?  Otherwise, your first argument's simply conjecture.  Estate tax is different from income tax... not necessarily all the same loopholes, and not always so straightforward.

Can't really argue the second point.  However, that's not an argument against the estate tax as a whole, but rather an argument against the minimum estate value.  The question would then be "at what dollar amount would an inheritor not be ruined by an estate tax?"
------------

it's not that hard to dodge estate tax, although I imagine the details differ from country to country

The classic way used to be to hide the biggest % of your wealth is to deposit all of your shares minus one share into a bank safe or with some foreign broker, then when you die you leave the key to the safe/password to the account to your heirs and poof suddenly they can pretend to have been owners of the family business for years already, with you just having shown up at the stock holder's meeting with only one share and your heirs simply let you run the business in spite of your extreme minority in the voting capital because you were teh shiznit. In its basic form this one should be hard to pull off in modern legal systems, but I'm sure there's more advanced

Another classic is to donate the title of a property to your children while you're alive while stipulating the right for a life long rent for yourself.

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Re: Estate taxes concentrate wealth

In theory I'm not against this tax. From all taxes its about the only tax that combats nepotism effectively if it would be applied correctly.

BUT... that is only IF it would work like it should.

Main problem is how to apply the tax without corruption and the large and costly bureaucracy to fight it. I just don't see how. Its insanely difficult to prevent corruption in this area.
Secondly, other taxes should be lowered if you -miraculously - manage to do this effectively.
thirdly,I agree with Justinians argument about the assets, and how it should be dealt with.

None of the above three points will ever, ever happen.