>>1. a. They won't disclose the backers.<<

Many of them are open about it in public. Do you have eyes and ears?

>>You don't like the Church of Scientology either, but let them build anywhere they like, regardless of the rumours of their lies, thefts, murders, and their weak and gullible sources of funding.<<

Scientologists are not seeking to build a victory shrine to their great 9/11 victory. This has been pointed out repeatedly in this very thread.

>>So he wants people to think and talk about Islam, just like your preacher, pastor, bishop or vicar wants you, your neigbourhood, and anyone who drives past the church to think about Christianity. Is that a crime?<<

No, it's not "just like" what you describe. None of those you mentioned want to use a 9/11 victory shrine as the motivator of thought. Additionally, nobody has claimed it's a crime to build a 9/11 victory mosque in this thread.

>>You say that distance is not part of the discussion, and should never be, and then you point out that this building was close enough to be hit by a piece of plane, therefore making distance an issue again.
In your personal opinion, should there even be a mosque within New York?<<

Now you're obviously just trolling. And you obviously haven't read any of this thread. The bit about me "making distance and issue again" after you attributed to me a statement I never made was a funny bit of an ignorant juvenile attempt at logic, though. Thanks for the laugh.

Doesn't seem very sensitive to suggest building a mosque near the very place a Islamist attack which slaughtered 3k happened just 9 years ago.

Sure, they have the legal right to do it, but it's not wrong to suspect the motives or at least the lack of sensitivity on the part of those who would propose such a thing.

A slight clarification, if it helps:

Regarding the distance, I said that a building damaged by the attack was too damned close. I said that the exact distance that would be more sensitive isn't exact by any measure. I said I wasn't going to equivocate over the distance, like 800 vs 1000 yards mattered. I wasn't "making distance and issue again" in any way. You had no valid point nor question of which I am aware--I certainly didn't ignore one that I acknowledged. If you make a point I have no response to, the least I will do is concede the point (obviously people who disagree with me often have plenty of valid points to make) and explain why I still hold a position contrary to yours despite your point. I was saying I didn't care to get into an equivocation over where the line of what is appropriate is. That a building damaged in the attacks is clearly too close is what I committed to. I implied that something significantly farther away would be more sensitive.

While we could discuss and refine where the line of what is appropriate might be, I really don't think that that discussion is relevant to the topic. It's just a distraction from the many points already being ignored. We can have this discussion if you please, but it's not any sort of point against anyone that nobody has drawn a line and said that it's fine 5 ft on one side of it and insensitive 5 ft on the other. One who holds the position that a mosque on top of the former WTC site itself would be fine and sensitive enough can obviously argue that ANY line distinguishing what is insensitive (ie too close) from what is unoffensive is wrong, so for someone to propose that they draw the line at 500 yards or 1000 yards or a half mile is irrelevant, as would be anyone saying "well you draw the line too far away!"

More than just that was trolling. You repeatedly asked questions which were already responded to multiple times--Generally questions implying that a straw-man argument was the position of those you were questioning. This is very odd, considering that it's obvious you haven't read most of the thread. How can someone assert that the opposition to their view holds certain straw-man positions in a legitimate discussion without even reading the positions of those they're responding to? They can't. So, with that clarification, I'm still done.

>>Oh I've read the thread...<<

Then please stop asking questions that have already been answered repeatedly.

>>and all I've seen typed is what I've heard Americans say on the news, and all I've heard on the news is a lack of good reason to not allow this mosque.<<

You haven't responded to any of my points on why I think it is unwise to build a victory mosque for the 9/11 attacks. Maybe you should reread the thread? You haven't responded to any of the posts, only repeatedly attacked straw-man arguments nobody ever made. Like You did again:

>>If it does get moved to another building, will there still be a demonstration, I wonder? I'm willing to bet "yes", and that will speak volumes.<<

You're implying that the objection is anti-islam, not anti-9/11-victory-mosque. This is all you've had to post this entire thread. All you've posted is that all objections to the mosque are anti-Islam and so clearly unfounded and bigoted. You've done this while ignoring the actual posts in the thread, never responding to the statements and points contained in them.

You're trolling. Try responding to what's posted in the thread. You've never responded to the objections to the mosque posted in this thread. You've only claimed that objections are based on anti-Islamic sentiment and called those who object to the 9/11 victory mosque anti-Islamic bigots. If all you have is straw-man and ad-hominem arguments, you don't have anything but fallacious thinking.

it's a freedom mosque

>>To be fair repeatedly stating its a victory mosque and dismissing evidence to the counter as trolling is not that good an argument.<<

What evidence against my claims? I've been asking for it for pages and been ignored every time. Its planners are openly radical and at odds with American laws and values. Their claims of intentions (the VERY few they've actually made, as they refuse to say much or answer any simple, respectful, common-sense questions) are obviously false, as even their proposal of the mosque defeats and goes against the purpose they propose building it would serve. It's those who support the mosque in this thread who repeatedly ignore and deny the obvious posted which refutes their claims that Rauf loves America and wants to discourage radicals from murdering civilians (an act which he rationalizes as just). I'm not saying you're lying or anything, but what you're saying is the opposite of the truth.

>>however I still disagree with the notion its a victory Mosque as you havent provided evidence it is<<

That it is such to those who propose it is obvious from their statements. They justify the murder of civilians, rationalizing that it's America's fault that radials murder them and refusing to condemn the murder of civilians as the barbaric and unjust act that it is. It's not a secret. It's not my opinion. They refuse to condemn terrorism or the murder of civilians. They explain that it's "complicated." They explain that it's America's fault, because the attacks are motivated and justified by American actions. They want to see America change to be Sharia compliant. That it is seen as such a tribute to a victory on 9/11 by radicals is a known fact. They state it openly. What evidence do you want? We have Rauf on tape explaining that terrorism is acceptable and America's fault. We have Rauf's own statements explaining that America should change to be more Sharia-compliant. I can't watch the video and read the text for you, which seems to be what you demand in order to accept any "evidence."

The ridiculous lies made up to claim that it's being proposed in the name of tolerance and understanding are hilarious. It's hard to believe you're serious.

Edit: I was specific in my reasons for using the word trolling. You're just making it embarrassing to read this dishonest drivel and driving away posters older than 12 without mental disorders interested in posting nonsense in order to out-spam other posters in some deranged form of virtual masturbation. Why are you defending people who aren't interested in any sort of legitimate exchange here? I'm not shying away from debate when I call embarrassing trolling what it is and choose not to encourage it with a response like it's part of any real exchange. I would much rather have all of my claims refuted by someone more intelligent and educated than me than be trolled by angry, juvenile posters who just spam garbage when they don't like what is posted for them to respond to. I didn't call anything trolling that wasn't clearly trolling, and explained when I did. When you don't read a thread or anyone's positions in it and then call its posters ignorant haters of a religion, that's trolling. When you repeatedly ask for information which has been provided 5 times or more (begging for a response from you which never came), that's trolling.

Everything is not relative. Everything is not equal. My pointing out you ignore every fact you don't like and you claiming I do don't equal out. You do. I don't. You proposing that I called anything but a troll a troll doesn't equal out with my choosing not to respond to trolls in full. It was trolling. And I am not shortchanging an honest debate to ignore it--the opposite is true.

Is this a change in tactics away from attacking a straw-man position (Everyone who disagrees with you hates Islam) nobody holds because I called you out on it 5 times? Now you've moved on to another fallacy: The appeal to the majority! If enough of you ignore the points made against your claims and say that I'm the one ignoring everything (I'm a bigot, after all. Any means of _retribution_ are just!), then that gives what you say support! Responding to this garbage is embarrassing. I'm that asshole that responds to every statement I take issue with, quoting it and replying to be clear. This makes your claim that I'm ignoring your insightful statements because your intellect is just too sharp all the more laughable. Here I am continuing that specific, comprehensive set of responses here, but responding to all this spam just spams the thread even more. Juvenile, upset posts in place of responses just make it clear that nobody who feels compelled to post taking issue with certain positions is capable of a simple exchange.

"The next time you have a thought... let it go." -Ron White

only in the sense we can't "prove" that Prince Phillip laying a wreath of apology in an SS cemetary while wearing a swastika armband would lead to violence

I wouldn't put it past Charlie when the old lady goes

I say build the mosque. just build it a couple of blocks further away. problem solved. easy peasy.

You cannot state for a fact that it is a victory Mosque, if it was a fact then this conversation would not be raging. What is a fact is that many people in the US have mistreated Muslims since 9/11. Mosques have been attcked, businesses boycotted etc - The intention of this Cordoba learning institute was to help put a stop to this.

It is a fact that the people building this Mosque claimed it was to spread understanding (I am not a mind reader and i assume you are not either Kemp so claiming they are lying is guess work at best) they were granted permission by New York City and given the blessing of the President, subsequently a shit storm has kicked up over people believing what Kemp does - The Muslims deny it is a victory Mosque and do not wish to be bullied out of building their mosque and I applaud them, standing up to tyrrany and mob justice is more American then screaming racism and not reading facts.

This is the fault of the media and people like Kemp (who will now call me a troll, his fave word) - The car bomb that was detected and disarmed in New York a couple of months ago was discovered by a Somali Muslim immigrant who notified the police (this last detail was omited from the reports) yet if a Muslim sneezes and forgets to say bless me then fox news does rolling ticker tape news on it for 24 hours.

This was a chance to turn a corner for America and instead of reporting that a "cultural learning centre built to help heal the wounds of the 11/9 tragedy and spread the true message of Islam" it was reported "MUSLIM VICTORY MOSQUE DEFILES GROUND ZERO"

This will be my final post on the topic as Kemp is merely trolling old points and shouting them louder when questioned - it is similar to the parable of the gardener by John Wisdom (look it up) Kemp will never accept it is not a victory Mosque and I will never accept it IS until evidence is provided that is more then "Their Imam once dared to question American foreign policy therefore they are terrorists!"

Asking you to provide actual evidence is not trolling, you have provided opinion with half truths shouted until you believe it has become a fact.

Fact - you bore me, if you require evidence to this FACT, I will be willing to email you a picture of me yawning while reading your posts.

>>You cannot state for a fact that it is a victory Mosque, if it was a fact then this conversation would not be raging. What is a fact is that many people in the US have mistreated Muslims since 9/11. Mosques have been attcked, businesses boycotted etc - The intention of this Cordoba learning institute was to help put a stop to this.<<

"Many" by what measure? Please note that attacks on Muslims, such as the cab driver stabbed a few days ago, are done by liberals in the USA, the majority of whom are of very mindsets than those who object to the wisdom of building this mosque in this location. You state that "[t]he intention of this Cordoba learning institute was to help put a stop to this." as if it is a fact, but the very fact that people do object to the mosque's location and the planners ignore this contradicts your claim. If the purpose was understanding, wouldn't they move it a few blocks out of understanding, rather than offend people and cause a controversy which surely does not help the supposed ends of understanding? You make reference to attacks (such as? there haven't been any within hundreds of miles of me) as something we need to pay heed to, but disregard the 9/11 attacks as not worthy of consideration. If you're concerned with attacks as a motivation for our behavior, shouldn't the 9/11 attacks be worthy of even more motivation to be sensitive to people's sensibilities?

>>t is a fact that the people building this Mosque claimed it was to spread understanding (I am not a mind reader and i assume you are not either Kemp so claiming they are lying is guess work at best)<<

Guess work at best? If you can't read into the fact that they rationalize and justify terrorism and blame Muslim radical terrorists on America, then you're just choosing to deny the obvious. You haven't responded to my repeated points and explanations on this topic because you have no response. The obvious is too undeniable for you to address and not look ridiculous. So we get this delayed, vague response that I must be using guess work because I can't read minds. I don't have to read minds. They say it openly. In English. On the public record. That you want to ignore what they've said and ignore that I've pointed it out doesn't mean they didn't say it. Sorry. You're out on a limb here. Way out on a limb. It's absolutely ridiculous to make the claims you keep making. And if you didn't know that, you'd have addressed my repeated explanations (much lengthier than this one) and explained where I was wrong in my reasoning. You didn't.

>> The Muslims deny it is a victory Mosque and do not wish to be bullied out of building their mosque and I applaud them<<

"The Muslims?" You're overgeneralizing. Some Muslims oppose the building of a mosque in this location as well. They don't cherish the murder of civilians, agree that a victory mosque for the 9/11 is a little bit insensitive, and don't want to be associated with radicals like Rauf who only hurt them. Obviously they deny it. Are you suggesting they're so stupid they would be as open about its purpose as they are about believing terrorism is justified and the fault of the USA? You conclude that because they deny it's a victory mosque then it must not be. You're presuming they're really, really stupid to come to that conclusion because they say so.

>>standing up to tyrrany and mob justice is more American then screaming racism and not reading facts.<<

Why is it mob justice to believe that building a victory mosque for the 9/11 attacks is unwise? It's American to bless the building of a victory mosque? I disagree.

>>This is the fault of the media and people like Kemp (who will now call me a troll, his fave word) <<

That is the "[t]his" you're referring to? I hate the word troll, just like I hate the ignorant, petulant children who post ignorant, juvenile, fallacious posts on this forum which embarrass non dysfunctional posters and think it's some sort of victory to post so much spam that anyone with any dignity realizes it's just a waste of time to respond. Please stop with the spamming. If you take issue with any of my claims (such as when I point out someone's _obviously_ trolling and why it's obvious) , quote me and state it. If you're not going to do that, just give it a rest and stop spamming. If you want to claim the indefensible is defensible, try to defend it in making your claim so that it's obvious on its face how ridiculous your position is. I'm tired of responding to childish insult filled posts and being asked for positions already stated multiple times at length. If you don't want to read the thread, don't read the thread. The obvious next step from this is not posting in it either.

>> The car bomb that was detected and disarmed in New York a couple of months ago was discovered by a Somali Muslim immigrant who notified the police (this last detail was omited from the reports)<<

What reports? I knew that as soon as I turned on the news.

>>et if a Muslim sneezes and forgets to say bless me then fox news does rolling ticker tape news on it for 24 hours.<<

Examples? Links to such fox news stories would probably be sufficient evidence for me to accept your point. But on the other hand, if you're full of it, as they say, and you've never watched fox news, and your statement is false, then I'll just be buying into ignorant garbage if I believe you.

>>This was a chance to turn a corner for America and instead of reporting that....<<

Statements like this just demonstrate cluelessness. What does America need to turn a corner from? Cultural acceptance and freedom, the likes of which are unheard of anywhere on earth? God I hope we turn a corner and abandon that! I don't know what sort of hatred toward and attacks on Muslims you think go on in the USA... because they, for the most part, don't. And the perpetrators in the few attacks that happen are more often radical liberal lunatics than the conservatives who, for the most part, object to the wisdom of building this mosque.

I'm confused why you jumped to concluding that it's a tyrannical mob idea to object to the wisdom of this mosque? I've merely pointed out the radical, violent views of its proposers. I've merely said i think it's unwise. The only reason I can think that you immediately jump to the conclusion that I think it should be STOPPED by LAW or FORCE is that it's ridiculous when you deny the radical views and intentions of its proposers. You can't back up that claim, so you repeatedly spam that "they say they're nice!" and are unable to explain why I'm wrong to conclude that people who justify terrorism and blame it on the USA won't condemn terrorism. It would understandably be hard to explain why I'm wrong to conclude that, seeing as they, literally, refuse to condemn terrorism. You've repeatedly more than suggested I'm a racist bigot who supports ignorant tyrannical mob rule because.... I said I think it's unwise to build a mosque in this location? Little bit of an overreaction because you can't/refuse to respond to the things I HAVE posted.

>>"Their Imam once dared to question American foreign policy therefore they are terrorists!"<<

I question American foreign policy. I think that plenty of things the USA has done in the middle east. I, however, do not condone murdering civilians. Those who want to build this mosque do. It's an important distinction in civilization. Maybe you'll join us here someday.

>>Asking you to provide actual evidence is not trolling, you have provided opinion with half truths shouted until you believe it has become a fact.<<

I've begged you to respond to ANY of it and tell me what you disagree with and why. Half truths? Great start! Now why don't you tell me what I've said that is wrong? I quote you and respond all the time. You're welcome. Why don't you try actually responding to content instead of calling us all ignorant racists? If we can find the specifics that we disagree on, we can have a productive discussion and boil it down to what we dispute which leads me to conclude this proposal is unwise and you to conclude that thinking it is unwise is a racist idea which supports tyrannical mob rule! You've failed to do this. You haven't attempted to engage in a legitimate discussion a single time in this entire thread.

>>Fact - you bore me...<<

You've embarrassed yourself enough in this thread and made me think I should be embarrassed to respond to such ignorant, bigoted, juvenile spam for so long in the name of being thorough and consistent. Good riddance. I don't miss angry children repeating fallacious attacks.

In addition to the law, I do believe American values of tolerance go a long way to support those who want to build the mosque. That is to say, I believe there are a lot of reasons that building a mosque anywhere is as wise as building any other religious building. I believe that there's a lot of room for legitimate debate on this particular topic. I, however, believe that radicals of a religion with a history of conquest who condone terrorism building a mosque at the location of a terrorist attack with a name which reminds the world of a previous conquest is unwise. Does this position make me a racist bigot who supports tyrannical mob rule? I don't think a judgement that it's unwise was even related to these topics. It wouldn't be such trolling if such accusations came coupled with explanations--even bad ones. But it is trolling. You're spamming without any attempt, at any point, of engaging in a discussion. That I disagree with you doesn't make me a troll. I'll tell you what I think and respond more after you tell me what you think. I think it would be embarrassing for America to allow the building of this mosque at this location by radicals who condone terrorism. I do not, however, think you're necessarily a complete idiot because you disagree. That you won't engage in the discussion yet call names makes you a troll.

k.. i've said i wouldn't post here anymore, but this looks like a really serious case of "you're not with us, so you're against us".

in fact, what the imam said, was...
"I wouldn