You're probably right with Iran. But I meant it more historicly though.
I must disagree on the Taliban though, as they make no exclusive religious claim to make a foundation for their regime. They use religion to justify their political, legislative and juridical actions though, but they never made exclusive claims that god put them in the position to rule.

> East wrote:

"also I think you will find that most muslims, while abiding the laws of the land they are in, would in fact support the implementation of sharia (not necessarily in the most harshest of its interpretations, but definatly some version of it), they just don't have the critical mass to do it because for now they still live in mostly non muslim societies"

Isnt this statement identical for any religious follower be they Christian, Jew, Sikh or Muslim. Most Western Nations laws are based on the original 10 commandments because most western nations were largely Christian based.

The coalition has attempted to place our legal system and idea of democracy on Iraq (a country unfamiliar with both) - those who are in power attempt to follow the laws and system that makes sense to them so of course if Islam was the largest religion in America it would have Islamic themed rules.

The following is an interesting article, I ask people to  read it properly and not just find one line to focus on and ignore the rest of the article

========================================================================

All this talk about the mosque reminds me of two things I heard growing up in Nebraska.

I had a 6th grade teacher who referred to American Indians as

Wow Chris shall I find the articles authors address so you can go kill him for his viewpoint

On a total side note and I know its been flogged to death so many times but still - I wish America had shown half this much anti terror attitude during the 70s, 80s and 90s when they were paying Irish terrorists to blow up school children in England

Yes I will be accused of trolling and off topic for that comment but still, America only decided it hated terrorism once an attack on their country had been commited.

Unfortunatly the response has lead to the alienation of 1.1 billion Muslims in the world, invading Afghanistan was the right thing to do, Bin Laden WAS being sheltered by the Taliban. Invading Iraq was NOT the right thing to do - it has been proven so many times Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and that Saddam and Bin Laden actually despised each other to the point Bin Laden offered the assistance of Al Quieda to Saudi Arabia if they wished to destroy Iraq. America refused to condemn Israels war in Lebanon despite it being barbaric and now it is rattling the sabre with Iran.

The foreign policy of America post 9/11 clearly sends the message Muslim = Enemy.

Now by protesting against the building of a Mosque designed to spread understanding because it is within a couple of blocks of where a terror attack occured that happened to be perpetrated by Muslims is suggesting that America does not like the fact it has loyal American Muslims in its population.

If there is one thing that the American populous seems guilty of its an over simplification of things

Get Bin Laden and Al quieda fails
All Islamic fundamentalists are members of Al Quieda
Muslims are terrorists
All Muslims must get on and have the same agenda as they are Muslim

The world does not work this way.

"They rule by demanding strict obedience to Islamic principles and Sharia Law, harshly prohibiting any sort of free discussion or referendum on how else society should be run. Claiming a divine right to rule would be superfluous really. Belief that they had divine warrant and permission was implicit in everything that they did."

But exactly that makes a theocracy. It requires a religious authority that (at least manages to partly) regulate every aspect of society. The taliban were the other way around, as Islam leaves very little room for a religious class. But this is semantics.

No, I use the academical historic definition of theocracy

"If you look at e.g. Saudi Arabia you will see that they use sharia as a legal code and the qur'an is part of their constitution. That makes them pretty theocratic in my book."

A lot of Western consitutions based themselves on the Bible, does that make us theocratic? Anyhoo, it's irrelevant to my point: Islam in itself leaves little room for a religious class.

"And little room for a religious class? come on, in sunni islam there is no international monolithic top down structure with one guy at the top but there is most definatly a religious class everywhere you look in islam."

An Imam in the strict sens only leads the prayers and is according to tradition not a fulltime religious person. I believe (I should check that though) that Imams are according to tradition chosen by the people too..

So, to conclude: Islam itself does leave very little room for a religious class.

its always worth it being an asshole Fokker!

I don't know that it makes any practical difference whether a hostile autocratic political system erected around a core of religious tradition is something totally unique, or whether it's the flip side of Western autocratic political systems erected around a core of religious traditions.

It's still a hostile autocratic political system.

well if they followed the constituiton they shouldnt have a mosque

they should have 300 people in one persons front yard, praying

and all the neighbors would be yelling at them

and the governor would call out the National Guard

but they wouldn't be allowed to sleep indoors

and the Governor would have to buy houses to let the troops sleep in them

....

I think I just solved the recession

I got tired of the repeated straw-man attacks.

It's nothing against Islam to want to deny radicals who hate America a victory mosque. Zoning regulations keep people from building certain things in certain locations all the time. There's nothing intolerant about zoning regulations in and of themselves. As we've established beyond any doubt (nobody responded to the arguments a single time), those who want to build a mosque here are radicals who blame America for the actions of terrorists. They even refuse to disavow terrorism as unacceptable. There's nothing in the constitution that says we have to allow terrorists and supporters of terrorists a victory shrine. The same objections would exist for any religion's terrorist-supporting radicals wanting a victory shrine. It's not about Islam. Keep saying it is, because doing so concedes to our points that you neglect to respond to.

>>I do think this mosque says to the moderate muslim people that their religion is accepted and respected in America<<

Theirs and all religions are accepted in America. America has nothing to prove in this regard. But the supporters of this mosque are radicals to the last man. Your repeatedly referencing this specific Imam as if he's the only radical among them misses the point. Moderate Muslims don't seek to offend Americans with a mosque at the site of the murder of thousands. Everyone keeps responding to this point as if I'm claiming they want it outlawed. I'm not. Learn to read. They just don't support or seek to build a victory mosque. And nobody who does is moderate.

I heard that the 'golden age' you described, Douglas Reynholm, was because Muslims conquered nearly all of the Christian world and had nothing left to conquer. Why do you conclude that the massive Muslim conquest signified by the Cordoba reference has nothing to do with why they would want a mosque at this location? That's an awfully large coincidence.

>>I remain amazed and really, sincerely, want to understand this. What can it be that is faulty in so many people

@USA:

1) What kind of proof, exactly, do you have that makes you believe that this mosque is a terrorist-funded victory-mosque and not a genuine place of worship for the local Islamic community?

2) Exactly how many blocks away from the WTC site is acceptable, if two blocks is not?

3) Are there any other places of worship within a similar radius?

Ok ok so you don't want a mosque there. What about the Communist Party USA Headquarters? They're not religious at all and they totally dislike terrorism too.