1 (edited by xeno syndicated 20-Jul-2010 07:05:53)

Topic: Utopia; Resource-based Economy; The Venus Project

We had a thread a while back about the Resource-based economy, and I think we had trouble defining what a resource-based economy was exactly, and how resources would be distributed.  Well, the people at the Venus Project have the following answers on their FAQ page:

http://www.thevenusproject.com/the-venus-project-introduction/faq

#2  What is a Resource-Based Economy?

To transcend these limitations, The Venus Project proposes we work toward a worldwide, resource-based economy, in which the planetary resources are held as the common heritage of all the earth's inhabitants. The current practice of rationing resources through monetary methods is irrelevant, counter-productive, and falls far short of meeting humanity

Re: Utopia; Resource-based Economy; The Venus Project

See, now this is completely different than the original explanation...  X(



See, here's the thing: that world is definitely a possibility, and I would say an inevitability.  As technology advances, natural resources are becoming less and less important, simply because knowledge is allowing people to get around the need for the resources, either through finding alternatives or by finding ways to stretch out the resources that do exist.  As such, we're seeing in today's society that those who rely on natural resources as the key to their wealth are increasingly being marginalized.  Nations that were considered to have fairly good farmland now find that the application of technology has rendered nature's gifts obsolete.

If it is as you describe, that vision isn't calling for anything crazy.  Here's why:
As society advances further technologically, natural resources become less and less important, with technology either duplicating or stretching the use of formerly natural resources.  From an economic perspective, this means those resources will be increasing in supply, while demand remains relatively constant.


I think it may be terribly faulty to call this a "Resource-based economy."  "Resource-based" implies that resources play the central role in that economy.  The modern economy is based on acquisition of resources.  Or, if you don't want to believe that, ancient barter systems were "resource-based economies."  Currency is simply a tool in that end, and a tool which apparently has distracted you enough to miss it.  The economy you describe, however, works to mitigate the value of the resource by making physical objects as plentiful as possible.  It's anything but resource-based.  The only measure of wealth in a society would be through knowledge, and/or possibly a "favor" system of services to evolve later, since physical wealth is rendered obsolete.

As for the feasibility of said society, the only questions are as follows:

1: Is modern technology able to create said society?  If not, what would need to be developed?
2: What problems would exist in the interim.  No matter how such a society will evolve, the transition would involve a huge social upheaval of some sort.  The model I described would probably involve a huge global recession as businesses are completely reorganized, and actually has a possibility of falling into a dystopia if whatever technologies that promise said benefits are monopolized early on.


In short... coming up with utopian societies is the easy part.  Presenting a plan to get there... that's the hard part.

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Utopia; Resource-based Economy; The Venus Project

I'm going to sleep soon, and so will reply tomorrow, but I wanted to reply briefly to this right away:

"In short... coming up with utopian societies is the easy part.  Presenting a plan to get there... that's the hard part."

I think developing economically isolated, self-sufficient resource-based project-communities as exemplary models for other resource-based project-communities and letting these multiply in number over long periods of time would lessen the impact on the monetary-based communities.

Re: Utopia; Resource-based Economy; The Venus Project

My response to that would require me seeing the rest of your response, so I wait... tongue

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Utopia; Resource-based Economy; The Venus Project

"1: Is modern technology able to create said society?  If not, what would need to be developed?"

I don't know exactly, but I would assume, foremost, that the energy crisis would have to be solved.

"2: What problems would exist in the interim.  No matter how such a society will evolve, the transition would involve a huge social upheaval of some sort.  The model I described would probably involve a huge global recession as businesses are completely reorganized, and actually has a possibility of falling into a dystopia if whatever technologies that promise said benefits are monopolized early on."

As I said before, I think the effects of the transition could be mitigated.

6 (edited by Phoenix Mailer 07-Aug-2010 15:33:37)

Re: Utopia; Resource-based Economy; The Venus Project

"We have arrived at a time when new innovations in science and technology can easily provide abundance to all of the world

Re: Utopia; Resource-based Economy; The Venus Project

I fear that your utopia would be a dystopia. I find it peculiar that the author if this pamphlet of "resource based economy" is careful not to mention the name we are familiar with it - communism. I mean really the notion of superabundance of production is the cornerstone of communist thinking. It's also quite funny how it states what professions would disappear. You shouldn't expect lawyers to disappear just because there's no more money, we're a lot tougher than that X(

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Re: Utopia; Resource-based Economy; The Venus Project

Hmm... Phoenix underlines an interesting issue.  Anthropologists have long made cases that population growth (at least the birth-level numbers) are based largely on economics.  Lesser developed, agricultural nations tend to have higher birth rates because children are seen as short term investments (after a few years, they can start working on the farm and such).  In contrast, in Western nations, population growth is flat, if not declining, largely because children go through education for 18+ years, and are huge economic liabilities until then.  Thus, if you remove that economic liability, the behavior reaction is apparent: huge population growth levels would strain whatever surplus did exist.

That being said, there is one question that I must ask: Can technological growth outpace population growth in which parents would be under the impression that they can have whatever resources they want, and thus can have as many children as they want?  I would guess that it's possible technology could outpace population growth, as technological growth is also an exponential growth model.  However, personally, I think we need more time to give technology a leap forward before any transition to this economy model (which I still argue should not be called "resource-based").

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Utopia; Resource-based Economy; The Venus Project

All Utopias lead to poisoned Kool-aid.

This to shall pass.

Rehabilitated IC developer

Re: Utopia; Resource-based Economy; The Venus Project

> Godwin's Law wrote:

> Hmm... Phoenix underlines an interesting issue.  Anthropologists have long made cases that population growth (at least the birth-level numbers) are based largely on economics.  Lesser developed, agricultural nations tend to have higher birth rates because children are seen as short term investments (after a few years, they can start working on the farm and such).  In contrast, in Western nations, population growth is flat, if not declining, largely because children go through education for 18+ years, and are huge economic liabilities until then.  Thus, if you remove that economic liability, the behavior reaction is apparent: huge population growth levels would strain whatever surplus did exist.

There is no one paradigm for such complicated real life matters. We have low birthrates in our western nations in spite of essentially living in a situation of superabundant resources. The fact that we don't need children as little moneymakers and that we have access to birth control resources allows us to pick the number of children we are comfortable with. Raising a child is not just an economic investment but also a very heavy physical and psychological one. Every individual attaches his or her weight to the benefits of these investments. If you take out financial cost they decision will still influenced by non-economic costs. Most people only want to bring up a relatively small amount of children (say a number ranging from 0-3) if they can freely decide on the matter. Economic, religious or cultural influences aside not many people want to raise up a huge number of children (as indicated by our low birthrates in the west). How much of our low birthrates is attributable to opportunity costs (I want scores of children but maaaaan I don't want to toil and toil for them) is up in the air of course.

>That being said, there is one question that I must ask: Can technological growth outpace population growth in which parents would be under the impression that they can have whatever resources they want, and thus can have as many children as they want?  I would guess that it's possible technology could outpace population growth, as technological growth is also an exponential growth model.  However, personally, I think we need more time to give technology a leap forward before any transition to this economy model (which I still argue should not be called "resource-based").

I don't think there's any question that the theoretically possible population growth caused by technology growth *can* outpace actual population growth. But the intuitive mistake to make is to look at it black and white. There will be periods where technological growth leads to a watershed event that allows huge growth potential (e.g. the use of modern fertilizers in agriculture and modern medicine), and there could be periods when growth is pushing or even exceeding the boundaries of what technology can provide for.

The notion that we have reached a point in time where present day technology could provide for limitless wealth on earth is patently absurd of course. They should have really included a paragraph concerning the problem of finite resources and the dangers of exponential growth in resource and energy consumption.

Finally their idea to eliminate waste regarding logistics chains is disingenuous. Do you think Wal-Mart wants x% of its fresh produce to be unfit for consumption even before it reaches its stores? Of course not... And their statement on eliminating shortages or overproduction?? Yeah Wal-Mart really wants to run out of unexpectedly popular products just to spite its customers, and factories like to overproduce products just so they can let them sit around rotting in expensive storage facilities. Really the writers of that text in the OP seem to have little to no idea of concepts like entropy and imperfect information. Padding it over with omg but we'll computerize and technologizamize and the next day we'll have an infinite amount of goods and services per square inch of the planet!!!! is pretty disingenuous...

Also (finally finally if you wish) the above is really not problematic for me at all, if this economy can provide me with an infinite amount of beautiful prostitutes that is.

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11 (edited by Phoenix Mailer 07-Aug-2010 22:40:56)

Re: Utopia; Resource-based Economy; The Venus Project

1) "We have low birthrates in our western nations in spite of essentially living in a situation of superabundant resources"

People in the west CAN NOT AFFORD TO HAVE MORE CHILDREN that's why the population is flat. In the east families that have many children are those that HAVE FARMS OF THEIR OWN and thus can afford to raise children.

2) the whole history of humankind is a constant fight for limited resources. If we had unlimited resources their prices would be zero.

12 (edited by xeno syndicated 08-Aug-2010 08:41:18)

Re: Utopia; Resource-based Economy; The Venus Project

> Phoenix Mailer wrote:

> "We have arrived at a time when new innovations in science and technology can easily provide abundance to all of the world

Re: Utopia; Resource-based Economy; The Venus Project

I would not want to be one of the slaves running these monorails or harbors 24/7 for the benefit of others, free of the distorted value of getting any kind of wealth out of it.

Lemme guess too, the country that honestly reports its assets is gonna be the rare sucker.  Russia, for instance, will probably report 2 acres of wheat and 1000 nuclear warheads, and wtf you gonna do about it.

nobody will be allowed to visit other countries to report how the wealth is not being distributed freely, since of course the transport used to haul people around the world could haul resources faster.  Every human tourist represents a delay in social justice!  Besides no private enterprise will have the wealth to afford it, and governments will have no real interest in exposing the system for a fraud, just like with weapons inspections today.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

14 (edited by V.Kemp 09-Aug-2010 04:55:29)

Re: Utopia; Resource-based Economy; The Venus Project

>>t is a system in which all goods and services are available to everyone without the use of money, credits, barter, or any other form of debt or servitude.<<

No forms of servitude means nobody mining or manufacturing. Nobody produces countless goods because they need 9,000 ovens. They produce them for other people. They serve others in order to be rewarded.

>>If all the money in the world disappeared overnight, as long as topsoil, factories, personnel and other resources were left intact, we could build anything we needed to fulfill most human needs.<<

You fail to offer alternate forms of motivation to preserve personnel. If incentives disappear overnight, so does personnel. Please fill in this gap.

>>It is not money that people require, but rather free access to most of their needs without worrying about financial security or having to appeal to a government bureaucracy.<<

You don't need "free access" to goods unless you can first create the goods. I'm not volunteering to mine or work in a factory all day for your benefit. And you're not offering to labor your whole life to provide for my needs either. You talk of "access" but do not address labor and production, instead presuming "personnel" are a good like iron ore that's inanimate and doesn't walk away when you remove it's incentive to stay and produce. Please fill in this gap.

>>The aim of this new social design is to encourage an incentive system no longer directed toward the shallow and self-centered goals of wealth, property, and power. These new incentives would encourage people toward self-fulfillment and creativity, both materially and spiritually.<<

I like wealth, property, and power. You can encourage whatever you want, but I will devote my efforts to obtaining cool things like the 24" widescreen I'm using as I type this, the quad-core 2.8 ghz i7 processor that's processing this exchange, and the ability to incentivize people to develop, produce, and deliver these things to me. I find things like these very spiritually fulfilling because they're fun and give me access to communication with anyone and any information I desire. You can encourage whatever you want, but that doesn't give you any reason to expect people to change their motivations because you encourage them to. What reason do you have to think I'll be fulfilled by anything other than what I enjoy being fulfilled by now? Please fill in this gap.

>>Besides computerized centers throughout the communities where products would eventually be displayed, there will be 3-D, flat-screen imaging in each home. If you desire an item, an order can be placed and the item automatically delivered directly to your place of residence without a price tag, servitude, or debt of any kind. This includes whatever people need such as housing, clothing, education, health care, entertainment, etc.<<

How do you ensure that production will match orders? I have a family and I want 5 flat screens. But I'm not a very hard worker. How do you ensure that lazy people like me won't overdraw from the production capacity of the hard workers? We can only have as many flat screens as we can produce. And I'm not an engineer nor can I operate machinery that produces these electronics. But I man can I consume them. How would such a system ensure production to match demand? Please fill in this gap.

>>Eventually goods and services will be mass-produced in such abundance as to be too cheap to monitor.<<

Currently capitalism motivates people to produce the best and most economically-produced products at the lowest price they can. What do you propose replace this motivation which currently lowers prices and increases volume of production? Please fill in this gap.

>>In a cybernated society, people will have more time for individual interests such as going back to school, working in the arts and sciences, traveling, etc. There will be many choices for exploring, studying, enjoying, and participation.<<

Again I am curious how you propose to ensure that production matches demand. Please fill in this gap.

>>#2 "We don

[I wish I could obey forum rules]