Topic: An immigration question:

Time to spark a little debate in here!  The space thread obviously didn't do the job... let's try again.


Illegal immigration in the US.  I don't need to give background information to most of you, so I'll skip it.  However, some notes about the debate as a whole:

1: Aside from some fringe groups, the vast majority of Americans want to see some sort of security on the Mexican border, if for no other reason than to prevent the drug trade.  The only reason I see that the border has not been secured yet is that the issue of border control has become a political bargaining chip to force the other side to accept their policy option.


2: In terms of the debate of deportation/enforcement of immigration policies vs. allowing illegal immigrants a path to citizenship, there's an interesting argument which I want to point out.  Those in favor of allowing illegal immigrants some path to citizenship, many have cited that illegal immigrants provide important jobs which are generally too crappy for most Americans to want.

Now, I would generally agree with this.  The United Farm Workers organization made an interesting advertisement to illustrate this point: they offered job applications to people willing to work one of the hundreds of thousands of jobs illegal immigrants hold, doing farm work in triple-digit temperatures for minimum wage and no benefits.  They only received a few dozen actual applications, for good reason.


However, that being said, I must pose a question to this argument.  I would argue that the reason why illegal immigrants would work these jobs is only partially based upon personal willingness to accept what would otherwise be considered crappy work.  Being illegal immigrants, these workers are unable to organize, politically lobby, or make any sort of individual bargaining with their employer, simply because if they do, the employer could report them to the government, and hire other illegal immigrants.  Simply put, the illegal immigrant, on an individual level, has very little bargaining power.


What if they were placed in some legal status that allowed them to work, though?  The bargaining tools that employers had against illegal immigrants will diminish, easily.  Assuming there is a border control along with any move toward legalized status, less new illegal immigrants would be able to enter the country, limiting the amount of cheap labor which farms could use to cycle out disgruntled employees, further diminishing their bargaining power.


My solution, then?


Nothing.


That's right.  Perhaps increase counter-narcotics work on the border.  But in terms of dealing with immigrants within the border, it seems like the immigration debacle has become somewhat of a balancing act, similar to the China-US-Taiwan issue: If you tilt the lever to one side or the other, shit hits the fan, but if you perpetually keep the status quo, the damage is limited.

Alternatively, perhaps some guest worker program could exist, but only if it created new labor rules as well (wage restrictions in certain categories, perhaps?).




Thoughts?  tongue

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Re: An immigration question:

Prison laborers replace illegals...

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Re: An immigration question:

I don't have enough time to explain my opinion but in short, I think it should change.

4 (edited by BiefstukFriet 14-Jul-2010 09:44:21)

Re: An immigration question:

The USA is selling itself short, no self-respecting nation should allow such a gigantic amount off illegals to flood past it's borders. The Southern states are slowly being annexed and the USA it's federal goverment is doing squat. I'm glad Arizona has the balls to make proper legislation to combat the illegals.

What I do not understand is, why are there no Guardsmen patrolling the borders, blowing up narco-terrorists etc. Why is the USA uncharacteristically bending over?


As for jobs, there are plenty of unemployed people in the USA who can do the shitty jobs. Cut down on your welfare programs and see how fast those vacancies will be filled.

Je maintiendrai

Re: An immigration question:

Like all the belgians that worked in the mines in Limburg and how Belgium never imported foreign workers and is now a glorious beacon of purity?

Not many people know this, but I own the first radio in Springfield. Not much on the air then, just Edison reciting the alphabet over and over. "A" he'd say; then "B." "C" would usually follow...

Re: An immigration question:

in the late 50's and 60's there was no need to attract workers for them since they weren't economically viable any more... the european commission for coal and steel imposed production limits since the coal crisis of 1958 and the ever increasing amount of losses was only slowed somewhat during the oil crisis of the seventies only to come back into full swing afterwards.

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Re: An immigration question:

@arocalex:
He's  from the Nederlands. But you make a valid point.

Re: An immigration question:

"The USA is selling itself short, no self-respecting nation should allow such a gigantic amount off illegals to flood past it's borders. The Southern states are slowly being annexed and the USA it's federal goverment is doing squat. I'm glad Arizona has the balls to make proper legislation to combat the illegals."

to be fair those states historically belong to the mexicans anyway smile

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Re: An immigration question:

And who would clean the rich peoples houses if there were no illegals?

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Re: An immigration question:

"to be fair those states historically belong to the mexicans anyway "

and your east coast belongs to Denmark

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: An immigration question:

i think we should deport chris

So I told the cop, "No YOU'RE driving under the influence... of being a JERK!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFjjO_lhf9c

Re: An immigration question:

si

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: An immigration question:

"and your east coast belongs to Denmark"

I know, but I'm too busy trying to get lille back from the french to do anything about it atm X(

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Re: An immigration question:

well at least you can recruit east asians to hold down scotland and wales as part of the Imperial Payback Is A Bitch program

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: An immigration question:

Einstein wrote:

Prison laborers replace illegals...

I like that idea but i would change it to.... Who ever  hires an illegal replaces an illegal picking crops for a year

✞✝✞ Șώεετ ɖરεᎯɱȘ ✞✝✞

Re: An immigration question:

we do have a problem with overcrowding in prisons.... would be interesting... not sure exactly how useful it would be though... what happens when people complain that criminals are stealing their jobs? tongue



one thing i would definitely be in favor of is much heavier presence at our southern border...  inorder to stop not just illegals, but drugs and guns being smuggled into the country...

Re: An immigration question:

> Einstein wrote:
> Prison laborers replace illegals... <

+1

As for the border problem:
Build a wall, an actual physical wall, instead of that... fence... Seriously, you Americans have been bitching about this problem for decades, you spend millions a year on high-tech border patrol-choppers with infra-red things and off-road pursuit vehicles, when you could just spend one million  o n c e.

The all you have to do is make the gate people actually check passports, and possibly get people to park their car in one of those big x-ray machines the Customs and Excise people use to look for drugs and people in shipping containers.

Simple, cheap(er), and no one can argue with it without looking daft.

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

18 (edited by Little Paul 17-Jul-2010 11:19:24)

Re: An immigration question:

agreed. A large wall. It looks costly but it isn't. It would prevent a lot of drugs coming in the country and alone for that save a shitload of money. Also, as focker pointed out correctly you can save a lot on police forces there.

It would mean a good thing for Mexico as well because the drug cartels lose some of there profit.

Re: An immigration question:

"what happens when people complain that criminals are stealing their jobs? "

if they were thieves, they cant get sued twice for stealing, no?

till the end of time..

Re: An immigration question:

"Seriously, you Americans have been bitching about this problem for decades, you spend millions a year on high-tech border patrol-choppers with infra-red things and off-road pursuit vehicles, when you could just spend one million  o n c e."

Our govt is full fo shit, even under Bush, they dont' WANT to do it.

Bush admin said we had to study the wall, had ot make it look like a border wall between friendly natiosn, cinder blocks was mean.  Steel was mean.  It had to be friendly looking. It had to be environmentally friendly.  We were told it was a problem because it was on environmentally protected  land (and that 30 ft needed for a wall must be essentially to thelizards) and it was on PRIVATE LAND, so whaddya gonna do (try telling the govt any other time "you CANT build there, thats my land")

they stalled and stalled and the Bush Admin became the Obama Admin who said "hey it was Bush who promised a wall".

Here's the point: the wall WILL be breached or tunnelled. The point of a wall was established in China 2000 yrs ago.  It will not everybody forever.  The point of the wall is to limit the enemy's options, and permit you to rapidly seal the breach with your mobile response units.  if they cut the wall then we know they are 2 or 3 hrs away from the hole, adn we can move faster to control them.

A wall, a border patrol, and sweeps of factories in the cities to round up the ones who got through.  That'll do it within 2 years.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: An immigration question:

"That'll do it within 2 years"

but by that time they'll have spawned two new generations of perfectly legal american citizens!

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Re: An immigration question:

but it will not spawn another 10 years of drug traffic.

Re: An immigration question:

If marijuana is legalized I will launch a criminal empire built on unlicensed street vendors selling psychedelic frogs wrapped in bacon

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: An immigration question:

arrest them

Re: An immigration question:

and then what do you do after arresting them?

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