Topic: So much for space...

NASA's basically been getting the shit end of budgets probably ever since the Cold War ended, but it seems recently that the program is reaching critical mass.

The space shuttle is retired.  Now personally, I think the space shuttle program indicated a large shift in NASA priorities, focusing on capitalizing what was discovered about space during the early years by creating efficient commercialization of orbital space.  However, that's a side issue.  I'll get to the issue of the importance of the space shuttle later...

Bush's plan for NASA was to replace the space shuttle with the Constellation program, a series of rockets set that would be modeled both for orbital use similar to the space shuttle and as a springboard for further exploration, including a return to the moon.


However...

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/06/14/2010-06-14_nasa_halts_constellation_program_to_put_man_back_on_the_moon.html


Okay, so the Constellation program's shot.  NASA indicates that, instead, it is relying on private companies to cover the role the space shuttle filled.  So with no space shuttle and no Constellation, NASA is pretty much grounded without the help of private companies or Russian aircraft.


So what exactly is NASA doing?


http://www.jta.org/news/article/2010/07/06/2739931/mission-is-to-reach-out-to-muslim-world-nasa-chief-says



In a June 30 interview  on June 30 with Al Jazeera, Charles Bolden said that "When I became the NASA administrator -- or before I became the NASA administrator -- (President Obama) charged me with three things. One was he wanted me to help re-inspire children to want to get into science and math, he wanted me to expand our international relationships, and third, and perhaps foremost, he wanted me to find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science."





These priorities seem like a big cop-out.  NASA was created with one primary goal above all others: to explore strange new worlds, seek out new life and new civilizations, and boldly go where no one has gone before.  Looking at the priorities, you should probably be able to tell that the third priority is obviously pretty much just focused on short term terrestrial goals, rather than the long term goals of NASA.  The first goal is possibly related to space exploration, except that there generally hasn't been competitive exploration since the end of the Cold War (perhaps an Iranian space program could restart competitiveness, but if it does, we wouldn't be ready without a successor ship anyway).

A moment about the second priority.  Yes, it's a good long term goal.  But it ignores history.  Why do people go to college in any specific program?  Largely, we look to role models of one form or another, which inspire us.  During the Kennedy administration, there was a big increase in science and math enrollment.  We were inspired... largely because NASA was opening up a new field of exploration.  For the first time in a long period, we were exploring.  The act of space exploration, then, could be thought to be the best driving force toward math and science.




Anyway... so let's look at where we want NASA (or, for the purposes of a private v. public debate, the space industry) to achieve.  Now, there will be a mix of the public v. private debate in here.

1: Orbital Space Support

This is what the Space Shuttle did.  It supported the International Space Station, which did research projects in orbit.  The shuttle maintained and launched NASA satellites for unmanned missions.  It was also a shipping system for materials into space.

Where is the most effective future for this program?  In regards to this program, I actually agree with Obama.  Private space programs are growing greatly, and low earth orbit is becoming within the reach of businesses.  With the space shuttle phased out and NASA contracts increased we could easily imagine that the private sector could take this role on.

Another reason to outsource this portion of space is that this program is relatively lackluster.  There's no big milestones, great discoveries, and very few nationally proclaimed heroes from this level of space travel.  It may be a new frontier, but by now, going into low earth orbit is like the 200,000th person to come to move to the American colonies.  Nice, but not heroic.  I explained why this is important earlier: When we create national heroes in a field of study, we encourage kids to enter those fields.  Although the space shuttle had a role, the amount of heroes popping up was relatively small.

2: Deep space exploration

This is a long term goal.  Mars has been a major candidate for exploration for a long time, but it would require a huge resource dedication.  A more likely short term candidate would be an asteroid that passes near Earth.  In short, it's what we would expect space exploration to entail.

This is where NASA is definitely needed, as an independently functioning agency.  Space exploration is what creates the heroes that inspire kids to enter math and science, in an effort to spearhead science and technology.  A private company being the first to achieve a big exploration gain would undercut the national pride gains that could be achieved through space exploration.

In addition, space exploration just isn't profitable right now.  Since current law prohibits parties from claiming extraterrestrial property, a company couldn't claim an asteroid.  Nor could they profit from the exploration itself without massive subsidization.  Only a national government could actually get the exploration level achieved, at least for now.

3: Near Earth Object Detection+Deflection

This is an odd role for NASA, which the ordinary person may laugh about.  However, life on Earth is constantly at risk of being eliminated in an instant if an undetected asteroid of sufficient size were to ever hit Earth.  Congress has recognized this threat, giving some (though not sufficient) funding for NASA to conduct asteroid searches, mandating that 99% of Near Earth Objects be discovered and tracked by the end of 2010.

If it was ever discovered that an asteroid was going to impact Earth, the pressure would surely come on each nation's space programs to stop the asteroid.  Russia has already recognized this need, and actually began talks about sending an unmanned spacecraft to test a non-nuclear asteroid deflection method (there's controversy because a deflection method on a harmless asteroid always has the risk of creating unpredictable orbits that could send the rocks returning to Earth.  As such, it's questionable if Russia will actually carry out the test).

Because of this, asteroid detection is probably NASA's most important role.  If an imminent asteroid threat was ever discovered, we would need a centralized, capable space program to evaluate the size of the threat, and develop a strategy in fighting the asteroid.

For this effort, we would need a space program that has a functioning deep space program (manned if possible, but unmanned is fine).  The modern theories for asteroid deflection include nuclear detonations, non-explosive impacts, and about a dozen or so ideas that would take some research to develop.  Space travel at this distance are out of reach of the private sector.  We need NASA for this.


Now where is NASA today?  It looks like, in an effort to modernize space travel by privatizing mundane tasks, NASA is losing everything that makes it a special part of the United States, representing the pinnacle of science and technology, and a herald of a new era.

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

2 (edited by tavius 07-Jul-2010 08:06:51)

Re: So much for space...

You guys need to learn how to balance your budget first before worrying about outer space. It's not cool to constantly be running budget deficits.

Re: So much for space...

actually we are ordered to forget about that until the economy recovers (yah! wuteva) because it doesnt matter, you guys got nowhere to go but US tbills

meanwhile we just offered federal govt (budget: $3 trillion tops) guarantees of the private economy (GDP: $14 trillion tops)

meanwhile each of the 50 states and just about every county which was allowed to offer bonds is considering defaults.  which the fed will also have to guarantee

we already printed $1 trillion during the last recession.  There is no way we can repay our loans and gifts from the Great Recession before the next recession, when the US got will be expected to do it again.

Meanwhile we destroyed another sector of our economy, as zarf says.  we are now a Russian client state.  If we piss them off we lose our telecommunications industry.

if you look at our social, economic, political and military troubles...we did it to ourselves...waging war on the eeeeevil Amerikkka that worked.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: So much for space...

Remember, as I stated before, space exploration has economic benefits, mainly as a driving mechanism to get kids going into science and technology fields, allowing further technological innovation.  By sacrificing NASA, you sacrifice long term economic success in exchange for short term budgetary concerns.

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: So much for space...

its that stupid hippie Outer Space Treaty that said we can't rape the Moon for its wealth

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

6 (edited by tavius 07-Jul-2010 17:23:10)

Re: So much for space...

If the U.S shows an unwillingness to reform it's spending habits and even looks like it's prepared to go into excessive printing mode or defaulting on its debt, those short term budgetary concerns may turn into something alot more severe. So far the economic recovery hasn't yet been backed with significant job growth so deficits may well be the norm for some time to come. The U.S is going to need the rest of the world (i.e China) to be prepared to keep ponying up for them T-bills.

TBH I think the whole America needs more kids to choose to become engineers/scientists thing is overrated at least in terms of projected economic benefit. If it were true that future U.S economic dominance will rely on a spike of enrollment interest in eng/tech degrees brought about by a more aggressive NASA then you have to concede that the war is already lost given that China and India are -yearly- graduating hundreds of thousands of graduates in these fields. Numbers that the U.S can't hope to match even with a resurgent NASA and under the best of circumstances.

Even now plenty of the U.S grads who do come out with engineering degrees are opting to go into finance or on to med/law school instead. It's all just a part of the local market supply/demand. Companies like Microsoft, Intel...etc are doing alot if not most of their tech research overseas now in Asia and it's not because there's a drastic shortage of domestic tech-savvy people, they do it because it's cheaper.

The U.S might actually be better off focusing on areas like legal services, finance, higher education, media (the "soft" stuff) where it seems it may have a comparative advantage in the long run.

Maybe space tech and exploration is something that's meant for another country to do for now, as long as they're willing to let you piggyback on their rockets. ATM it's a risk to devote too much funding into something like this given that there is really no driving economic need to go casting about into space as of yet. Asteroid deflection maybe... sounds like a job for the UN or some world body though since everyone has a stake in this really.

Re: So much for space...

> tavius wrote:

> If the U.S shows an unwillingness to reform it's spending habits and even looks like it's prepared to go into excessive printing mode or defaulting on its debt, those short term budgetary concerns may turn into something alot more severe. So far the economic recovery hasn't yet been backed with significant job growth so deficits may well be the norm for some time to come. The U.S is going to need the rest of the world (i.e China) to be prepared to keep ponying up for them T-bills.


That's not a unique reason to cut NASA's budget.  I could make the same case for cutting health care, military spending, or thousands of other programs.


> TBH I think the whole America needs more kids to choose to become engineers/scientists thing is overrated at least in terms of projected economic benefit. If it were true that future U.S economic dominance will rely on a spike of enrollment interest in eng/tech degrees brought about by a more aggressive NASA then you have to concede that the war is already lost given that China and India are -yearly- graduating hundreds of thousands of graduates in these fields. Numbers that the U.S can't hope to match even with a resurgent NASA and under the best of circumstances.


One simple reason why this is wrong: Death is a check against hegemony in the field.  The US was able to get a big math/science edge coming into the 80's.  However, they eventually began to retire, and that knowledge accumulated was lost.  Eventually, the Chinese and Indian tech specialists will be retiring, removing the advantage the nation gained now, allowing the US to step forward in the future.


> Even now plenty of the U.S grads who do come out with engineering degrees are opting to go into finance or on to med/law school instead. It's all just a part of the local market supply/demand. Companies like Microsoft, Intel...etc are doing alot if not most of their tech research overseas now in Asia and it's not because there's a drastic shortage of domestic tech-savvy people, they do it because it's cheaper.

The U.S might actually be better off focusing on areas like legal services, finance, higher education, media (the "soft" stuff) where it seems it may have a comparative advantage in the long run.


From a purely economic standpoint, I would 100% agree with you.  However, even most economists, though being strong advocates of comparative advantage, recognize the need for nations to protect some industries which present national security benefits.  If there is ever a field that should be recognized as exactly that, it's technology development, at least in this era.  Your position would easily result in the US military having few people conducting any military research, surrendering its position in the world without a fight.


> Maybe space tech and exploration is something that's meant for another country to do for now, as long as they're willing to let you piggyback on their rockets. ATM it's a risk to devote too much funding into something like this given that there is really no driving economic need to go casting about into space as of yet. Asteroid deflection maybe... sounds like a job for the UN or some world body though seems everyone has a stake in this really.


1: Asteroid deflection would require many technologies which would be considered national secrets.  In some cases, nuclear weapons would be necessary.  Propulsion systems with military applications could also be used in the deflection technology.  Letting the space technology be used internationally would allow more nations to access technology that would destabilize politics on our planet.
2: The UN takes even longer to come to conclusions than Congress.  If you put too much debate into asteroid deflection, the circumstances of the deflection change due to the time allotted.  The result?  The original debate becomes meaningless.
3: There's a free rider problem as well.  If nations see that everyone has a stake in the program, they can stall the program unless favorable circumstances, such as reduced funding demands or veto power, take place.  That becomes quite problematic.
4: There's one more circumstance which can be particularly problematic.  Assume an asteroid is headed toward Earth.  It's too close to Earth to be pushed away from the planet.  Its composition prevents us from shattering the asteroid.  It's too small to create a K-T event, but it is currently poised to hit the Atlantic Ocean, which would send huge tidal waves across large populated sectors of the world, including Europe and the East coast of the US.  However, a ship can bump the asteroid to where it instead hits a coastal nation in South America, saving millions of people in the process.

Would it be a good idea?  Yes.  Would the targeted nation ever agree to the proposal?  No.

Just a little thought experiment with the last one.  smile

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: So much for space...

we can't even service our telecom satellites without riding piggyback.   Don't that jeopardize our telecom industry?  And weaken our independence?

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: So much for space...

if nasa builds more ties with the muslim worlds then allah will do it for you

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Re: So much for space...

well we build vehicles that blow up, so that's a point in common

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: So much for space...

lol @ east & Chris

Re: So much for space...

We need an I.S.A.
We can't keep expecting the likes of NASA, or the ESA, to do all the work.
The beginning is not a good time to try and go it alone.
Besides, imagine the budget an ISA would command, without having to worry about crippling an economy.
...
I think Russia's already figured this out; they'll launch anything and anyone into space.

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

Re: So much for space...

agree with that fokker. But the problem is, part of space tech is also military tech or could become military tech. That is why it isn't already there despite the benefits.

Re: So much for space...

I don't see a problem:
  The military don't tell anyone what technology they have, or what technology they are adopting; to do so is strategically stupid.

The problem is beuracracy, red-tape, and private company interests. Some people in NASA, for example, don't want to join forces with the Russians because then they'd have to explain why they charge twice the price for the same service, which is already quite hypocritical given that NASA is forced to demand the use of top-of-the-range equipment put together by the  l o w e s t  bidder, and for what? NASA tech, ESA tech, Russian tech, is all as "safe" as each other, the difference is in appearance. Some people use Laptops, the Russians use pencils.

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."