26 (edited by avogadro 04-Mar-2008 17:22:33)

Re: [ConspiracyNut]Information War[/ConspiracyNut]

"Except that in anarchy there is no motivation for anyone to attempt to stop, catch, and kill the person burning down your house.  In a non-anarchist state we have police who are paid to do it, but in an anarchist state the only reason someone would stop a person from burning down your house is that the fire might spread to their house.

You have to remember that human beings are not kind, helpful, or courteous by nature these are behaviours brought on by the illusion of order.  In a situation where there is nothing for them to gain by helping or nothing to lose by not, people will probably just sit back and watch your house burn."

you're saying if there was some lunatic burning down houses for the hell of it, people wouldnt be afraid of their own houses and family becoming victim to the guy?

and you think in an anarchist state, you couldnt pay someone to protect your house. or you could split the cost with your neighbors to protect your neighborhood.

and finally if you work for a company, a company is going to give you a reason to work for them, a common bonus a company would give its employs would be a house in a safe neighborhood with guards.

Re: [ConspiracyNut]Information War[/ConspiracyNut]

Look at Kenia, it's a wonderful example of anarchy

Re: [ConspiracyNut]Information War[/ConspiracyNut]

kenya is not anarchy, doesnt even resemble anarchy in the least...

Re: [ConspiracyNut]Information War[/ConspiracyNut]

In anarchy those same guards will one day realize "Hey we can kill all these people, and sell their houses so long as people dont think we will do it to them also... we will say it is our one time payoff for the crap positions"

Then they go and kill all those good workers in their safe neighborhood, and the company's owner, his family, and then they loot the things they can trade later, take the companies semi's and roll outta the neighborhood to a different region.

As it stands it is really hard to catch some serial killers, and serial rapists. Jeffry Dahmer, the Green River Killer, Jack the Ripper, the Zodiac Killer, the Tylenol killer, the Klu Klux Klan killings (though this would please Decimus).

This is just the tip of the ice berg. With no police, and no trained persons (They could become the target after all, plus people resent in anarchy anyone who seems to act leaderish even if it is just a matter of skill and ability) these people could kill endlessly.


Anarchy is a funny little trap by Satan himself, a lie that pervades those who think without order we can suffice just fine.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

30 (edited by avogadro 04-Mar-2008 22:28:05)

Re: [ConspiracyNut]Information War[/ConspiracyNut]

"In anarchy those same guards will one day realize "Hey we can kill all these people, and sell their houses so long as people dont think we will do it to them also... we will say it is our one time payoff for the crap positions"

there is just as much of a chance for police to do that in a government. next to impossible. the guards would be the same as police except they arent part of an inefficient government that wastes money, more is demanded of them because a company is paying them for a service.  and unless all technology magically disappeared when anarchy became, there would be no way for the guards to get away with it, and companies surrounding the area would have to kill all the guards to discourage their guards from doing it.

"
As it stands it is really hard to catch some serial killers, and serial rapists. Jeffry Dahmer, the Green River Killer, Jack the Ripper, the Zodiac Killer, the Tylenol killer, the Klu Klux Klan killings (though this would please Decimus)."

yeah because governments are after them, and theres no difference to the cops whether they find them or not, they still get paid, they still live a great life.

"With no police, and no trained persons"

there would trained persons, they just wouldnt serve a government, but a company or a neighborhood, or an individual, i dont see why that is so hard for you to understand.

"They could become the target after all, plus people resent in anarchy anyone who seems to act leaderish even if it is just a matter of skill and ability"

thats just a bias against anarchy that governments promote in their population

"a lie that pervades those who think without order we can suffice just fine."

wheres the order? if you think there's order in today's world, you're only deluding yourself. people would be able to delude themselves into thinking there is order in an anarchy just as much as they are able to in a government.

Re: [ConspiracyNut]Information War[/ConspiracyNut]

Chaos is not the answer to the ineffectual government, nor to corruption.

If you want answers then you must seek a different path.

If a company can grow to a monopoly within laws, what is to say without a government they would be controlled? Would not instead without rules to worry them they would grow faster, bigger, stronger?

You do not understand that history is replete with 'experiments' in how to make society safer. And full of failures. Yours is the oldest form in the history of man. Adam and Eve had no government. And Cain killed Able.

Think on it man, think hard.









Now that you had a chance to think, you can have this.


A used car salesman... a successful one... go to him, after identifying him, and tell him you wish to buy a car. Your budget should be clear in your mind, your desired price clear in your mind, but now I want you to reduce those by by 50%. Try to goto that salesman with that in mind. You will find if you do agree to buy a car it is for more than what you tried to stop it at, and possibly even for higher than what you really budgeted for it. Government is like this.


Does the concept sink in yet? Every time we hire a slick willy, a Obama, a Kennedy we get shafted. Every time we hire someone who does not want the job, he gives his everything.



Have you comprehended this yet?


Ideology is nothing


go with the party you most expect to be able to do changes with, and can tolerate the most.



Society is so ignorant, and you wish to throw them to the dogs of anarchy, where they will be shredded, robbed, killed, maimed, tortured, abused, misused, raped, and left to rot.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: [ConspiracyNut]Information War[/ConspiracyNut]

Flint your stupidity hurts me

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

33 (edited by avogadro 05-Mar-2008 06:20:33)

Re: [ConspiracyNut]Information War[/ConspiracyNut]

"If a company can grow to a monopoly within laws, what is to say without a government they would be controlled? Would not instead without rules to worry them they would grow faster, bigger, stronger?
"

how could a company grow any more powerful then a government? and if a population wouldnt allow a government a certain amount of control, what makes you think they would allow a company to?

"You do not understand that history is replete with 'experiments' in how to make society safer. And full of failures. Yours is the oldest form in the history of man. Adam and Eve had no government. And Cain killed Able."

Cain and Able are fictional characters and anyone thinking otherwise knows shit about the bible. \

"Society is so ignorant, and you wish to throw them to the dogs of anarchy, where they will be shredded, robbed, killed, maimed, tortured, abused, misused, raped, and left to rot."

you act as if anarchy is any less ordered then states, but they arent. people are shredded, robbed, killed, maimed, tortured, abused, misused, raped, and left to rot in any sizable state in the world. all the huge crimes, like those mentioned easlier, the mass public wont approve of and will find a way to dissuade people from committing them, but there wont be taxation, no one will give a damn whether gays marry or if your neighbor is smoking pot; they will protect their freedoms without taking away other people's freedoms.

Re: [ConspiracyNut]Information War[/ConspiracyNut]

"you're saying if there was some lunatic burning down houses for the hell of it, people wouldnt be afraid of their own houses and family becoming victim to the guy?"

I'm sure they would and I'm sure they'd be on the lookout for him, but they aren't going to stop him from burning down other people's houses just make sure he doesn't try to burn their's.

"and you think in an anarchist state, you couldnt pay someone to protect your house. or you could split the cost with your neighbors to protect your neighborhood."

Pay them what exactly?  Keep in mind without a regulatory body money becomes essentially worthless, you can't eat it or drink it and it doesn't make good clothing or shelter so how are you going to convince someone to give up a necessity like food or water in exchange for paper?  Now beyond that how much do you think it would cost to get someone capable of protecting your home to do so instead of protecting their's? 

"and finally if you work for a company, a company is going to give you a reason to work for them, a common bonus a company would give its employs would be a house in a safe neighborhood with guards."

Ok in this case the company would have to pay to supply electricity, heat, water, housing, and security.  They also have to provide either food or a salary to their employees (just to cover food mind).  Now with all these costs the company would go out of business very quickly because NOBODY is going to pay the mark up these expenses would cause.

Allow me to offer an example

Company A has 50 employees
They produce 5,000 widgets per day (100/employee)
Each widget has a production cost of $5
Pre-anarchy each employee earns a salary of $12.5/hr ($100/day)

So not factoring in energy, equipment, etc. needed to maintain the facility producing the widgets each widget would have to be sold for:
$5 + $1 = $6 just to break even

Post-anarchy there are the added costs
Let's say to provide all of the necessities it costs $3000/month/employee ($100/day)

Now lets say the company hires 100 security personnel (2-12hr shifts 1 guard/employee) at a salary of $20/hr ($160/day)
since the security personnel also have to be housed they factor into necessities costs

So our new cost to break even is
$5 + $1 + $3 (necessities costs for employee & guards) + 3.2 (guard wages) = $11.2 which is very nearly a 100% mark up in price.

Now admittedly the numbers are small and I pulled most costs out of air but you get the picture.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.

Re: [ConspiracyNut]Information War[/ConspiracyNut]

"but they aren't going to stop him from burning down other people's houses just make sure he doesn't try to burn their's."

why not?

"Pay them what exactly?  Keep in mind without a regulatory body money becomes essentially worthless"

there are infinite ways to produce a type of currency. i dont see how it matter whether its paper money, gold and silver coins, or  pretty pebbles.

"you can't eat it or drink it and it doesn't make good clothing or shelter so how are you going to convince someone to give up a necessity like food or water in exchange for paper?"

because there isnt chaos and people want things other then what is needed.

"
Ok in this case the company would have to pay to supply electricity, heat, water, housing, and security.  They also have to provide either food or a salary to their employees (just to cover food mind).  Now with all these costs the company would go out of business very quickly because NOBODY is going to pay the mark up these expenses would cause.

Allow me to offer an example

Company A has 50 employees
They produce 5,000 widgets per day (100/employee)
Each widget has a production cost of $5
Pre-anarchy each employee earns a salary of $12.5/hr ($100/day)

So not factoring in energy, equipment, etc. needed to maintain the facility producing the widgets each widget would have to be sold for:
$5 + $1 = $6 just to break even

Post-anarchy there are the added costs
Let's say to provide all of the necessities it costs $3000/month/employee ($100/day)

Now lets say the company hires 100 security personnel (2-12hr shifts 1 guard/employee) at a salary of $20/hr ($160/day)
since the security personnel also have to be housed they factor into necessities costs

So our new cost to break even is
$5 + $1 + $3 (necessities costs for employee & guards) + 3.2 (guard wages) = $11.2 which is very nearly a 100% mark up in price.
"

governments are inherently wasteful, a company could provide everything through the money they saved from the lack of taxes.

Re: [ConspiracyNut]Information War[/ConspiracyNut]

So, rather instead of an anarchy, you're now promoting corporate government, avo?  Anarchy is the lack of authority on all levels.  Just like pure democracy and pure communism cannot exist, neither can pure anarchy.  Humans were meant to survive as a group, with someone BEING the leader.  Humans are also naturally violent towards each other.  Anarchy is the temporary transition from one social structure to another and nothing more.

Re: [ConspiracyNut]Information War[/ConspiracyNut]

I agree, corporate government is entirely different than true anarchy.

Corporate government is also shown in a popular movie/tv series... Robocop.

There were other movies and shows that showed such corporate governments. Monopolies quickly would occur, stagnation, fighting between corporations, slavery even.

I am not for either Anarchy or Corporate Government.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: [ConspiracyNut]Information War[/ConspiracyNut]

"Humans were meant to survive as a group, with someone BEING the leader."

No.  In fact, humans were meant to survive as a group in a hunter-gatherer style life with no one being the leader.  The notion of leadership hierarchies only developed when land resources became a commodity.

Re: [ConspiracyNut]Information War[/ConspiracyNut]

But what does anarchy have to do with anon?  Do you think that simply because it has no hierarchical leadership that it must necessarily be some anarchist movement?

Re: [ConspiracyNut]Information War[/ConspiracyNut]

"So, rather instead of an anarchy, you're now promoting corporate government, avo? "

nope, i dont promote anything that governs. right now, companies dont govern. in anarchy, you can still hire someone to protect your business, and its not a government, thats all im supporting.

"Anarchy is the lack of authority on all levels. "

that is a different type of anarchy. im against all governments, that makes me an anarchist, just because i am against governments, doesnt mean im against authority on all lvls. i dont promote a 5 year old crossing the street because his parent told him not to. im not against a company having a ceo and other leaders that have control of companies, im against governing, forcing your beliefs onto others.

"I agree, corporate government is entirely different than true anarchy."

yes, they are, and im not for coportate government....

41 (edited by Freelancer 05-Mar-2008 17:35:23)

Re: [ConspiracyNut]Information War[/ConspiracyNut]

"Why, oh why, do people automatically assume that in anarchy everyone will turn into crazed serial killers?"

Look what happened when Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans. With no authority it only takes a hand full of people to cause destruction.

"doesnt mean im against authority on all lvls"

Who will then command the police? The army? Who will then judge? Who will make sure that all laws are fair?

"governments are inherently wasteful, a company could provide everything through the money they saved from the lack of taxes."

Why would they have the need to provide things?

42 (edited by avogadro 05-Mar-2008 20:05:56)

Re: [ConspiracyNut]Information War[/ConspiracyNut]

"Why would they have the need to provide things?"

because companies are useless without employees

"Who will then command the police? The army? Who will then judge? Who will make sure that all laws are fair?"

there would be no police, army, or laws that need to be judged.

Re: [ConspiracyNut]Information War[/ConspiracyNut]

"because companies are useless without employees"

Lol, i think you need some history lessons, search for the time when there was the Industrial Revolution (besides with no laws there will me slavery)
workers were made to worker 12 to 16 hours and earn almost nothing.

"there would be no police, army, or laws that need to be judged."

Yup, if we with laws, are what we are, imagine with no laws.

Re: [ConspiracyNut]Information War[/ConspiracyNut]

"Lol, i think you need some history lessons, search for the time when there was the Industrial Revolution (besides with no laws there will me slavery)
workers were made to worker 12 to 16 hours and earn almost nothing."

yeah, and henry ford dramatically increased the wages and living conditions to his workers way before there were any laws to make him to, because its best for companies to do so. i think you need some history lessons if you think laws prevent slavery.