Topic: Anarchy and Libertarianism

So that we pre-empt deletions of posts.


I contend any form of anarchy, whether minarchy, or otherwise, is doomed to kill more people than anything else and will only result in more tyranny around the world.


I have stated my claims and now to back it.



An anarchist thinks of personal defense, and maybe community based reactions to events.

If such were possible then how was Napolean able to take Italy, Egypt, bash Prussia and Austria and take and hold so many communities?

His weapons were decidedly more old school than Hitlers.

How did anyone fare fighting tanks with the horsemen and lances in (I think) Belgium? How did the French Resistance do until the actual invasion started?

Hitlers tanks and aircraft are primitive compared to hypersonic missles, scramjet fighters, depleted uranium shells and carbon nanofiber armors.

How many communities will keep modern tanks, who monitors for the rise of tyrants, how do you stop surprise attacks, who will protect against nuclear tipped ICBM's?

The only defense against a tyrant, a would be nation bent on growing is not a town, not a county, but a nation.

You argue New York City can defend itself. You will concede that Ogallalla Nebraska may have a hard time defending itself but that others will help not out of charity, but of self defense.... a tyrant is a danger to all. Yet you fail. Yes fail.


My example is easy in this case. The Mafia. Even governments have issues with organized crime. Defeat these via your theories and I shall concede (if I believe them) the argument.


But its never that easy.


I just presented a bullet proof case, no holes. So Acolyte shall run away. I say this because Libertarians, and more so Anarchists, cannot face an argument that shatters the fantasy worlds they have built.

I have never seen one not run away early, and stay away for a long time.

I dare any skilled in this topic to even play devils advocate or support it if they do. People like Justinian, Kemp, and maybe some others.

So I bid farewell to Acolyte in advance, unless he is the first to ever take this challenge from a master, and the most damning in his eyes, a politician! To arms!

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

2 (edited by V.Kemp 29-May-2010 04:50:58)

Re: Anarchy and Libertarianism

There's a reason there are no Anarchist regions on the globe. And it's the same reason there never will be.

I can't really play the devil's advocate here. I don't think supposed anarchists actually believe such a system could be actualized nor do I think they actually believe it would "work" by any measure for any period of time.

Law and social contract theory are not new. But they don't function without systems in place to ensure that they are actualized. When someone steals your bread you don't appeal to the community to recover what might be recovered and punish the perpetrator(s). If you had to do that, nothing but a sense of decency (which it would be silly to presume everyone had regarding stolen bread, seeing as there are people willing to murder billions--and some have even managed to murder millions) would discourage people from stealing bread. Theft of bread would be more common. This, of course, would discourage the production of bread, considering it's value in feeding oneself and one's people and value for trade would diminish, since stolen bread has no value--it is not in one's possession to consume nor trade nor anything else.

The point being, of course, the paramount importance of law and enforcement of the law. There's a reason there have been laws and law enforcement for tens of thousands of years. Law enforcement, even as envisioned by "anarchists," involves the association of men who make agreements and take action for their common good. And this is government. I say that I don't believe supposed anarchists actually believe such and such about their desired state of things because, ultimately, it seems they're just saying something about what sort of government they would like in place. Because, no matter the stated starting point, some sort of system (government) naturally occurs out of the associations of men. The theoretical starting point is irrelevant. X number of people can theoretically live in peace and harmony without a government. But X number of people live on earth, not a vacuum, and sooner or later they can form a government to defend themselves or be subjugated by outsiders. In either scenario, 100% of the time government exists. 0% of the time does a stateless society persist for more than moments in an isolated community.

Anarchists may refute my claims at any time by pointing out a 'successful' (by any measure) anarchist, stateless region of the globe any time in the earth's history. There aren't any. Happy hunting.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Anarchy and Libertarianism

Acolyte for you.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Anarchy and Libertarianism

"How did anyone fare fighting tanks with the horsemen and lances in (I think) Belgium?"

Perhaps I misunderstood you, but it's my duty as a historian to dispell legend from truth. The myth of the (Polish) cavalry battling German tanks is untrue. It originated from images of the raid attempts the British cavalry tried in the early parts of WWI while being blown to bits by German artillery. It was a state of the art cavalry though, and their horrible losses was more or less the end of any cavalry in the western world.
The Polish did have a cavalry in WWII though, but they didn't do large scale attacks against German tanks.

God: Behold ye angels, I have created the ass.. Throughout the ages to come men and women shall grab hold of these and shout my name...

Re: Anarchy and Libertarianism

Belgium, the netherlands, poland and russia all used a lot of horses for special "cavalry" units. Truth being told, it was more a matter of mobility because in combat situations they dismounted most of the times. So it was more like mobile infantry. They were also used for scouting and messaging. Germany also used this type of cavalry.

Some Polish cavalry units actually did desperate charges against tanks. I saw a picture of it during a visit to a WW2 museum. The tank they tried to attack was one they only had in WW2. So unless the foto was a (very good) fake, these things happened. I must admit I have no clue about the frequency or quantity of these events.

Re: Anarchy and Libertarianism

We had a lecture in wich that myth was proven false. It was a rather popular myth though. I'm not saying there weren't any attempts to destroy a tank with cavalry, it might have happened. But there was not a single large scale attack against a panzer-division, like the myth tells.

God: Behold ye angels, I have created the ass.. Throughout the ages to come men and women shall grab hold of these and shout my name...

Re: Anarchy and Libertarianism

No division scale attacks, just individual desperate figfhts. But the idea holds true.


I think only three of us in this forum have a chance against a single tank, and for different reasons on each. Against two, no way.

The moral was to point out a very well equipped attacker to not adequately equipped defender equals a loss.

The attacker will almost always win.


Acolyte come here and show me how to beat the Mafia!

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Anarchy and Libertarianism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_at_Krojanty

Tobi