Topic: Constitutions

I have been reading lots recently about constitutions and the good and bad involved in them.

Obviously one of the most famous and earliest forms of a written constitution was the Instrument of Government introduced into England in 1653. This constitution was eventually thrown out by Oliver Cromwell as MPs kept trying to ammend or add to the constitution. It was argued that it was pointless writing down a set of rules if you merely alter them whenever it suits.

England now has what is called an unwritten constitution which seems to be based around manners and "decency" though this obviously caused a lot of confusion after the recent general election (people demanding Gordon Brown resign as PM before the constitution would allow him) and again people are arguing these accepted rules are wrong.

The US constitution seems very limiting of the american government and whenever they mention changing some of the rules or adding to them two camps spring up on here with those screaming you cant change the constitution and those thinking it is an outdated system that is holding the country of the US back.

So I am curios, if you are pro constitution why? Same question to those who are against it.

Re: Constitutions

>>The US constitution seems very limiting of the american government<<

Ahhhh, I see you've found its most beautiful point!

It's not a coincidence that America's constitution is the governing document of the most prosperous nation the Earth has ever been home to. Though politicians of both 'sides' will continually tell you how much more government we need to make Eden here on earth, the Founders of the USA who wrote its Constitution were both more honest and wise than these dishonest, power-hungry idiots today and all the idiots who buy into their idiotic rhetoric.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Constitutions

Not a fan of current politicians then tongue

Re: Constitutions

Like the ones in Greece and Spain?

Nobody with a functioning brain is.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Constitutions

To be fair to Greece and Spain the politicians in the UK have hardly painted themselves in glory

Back on topic though, how do people feel about constitutions?

Re: Constitutions

Well, after ~275 years our's is now a dartboard...

Re: Constitutions

"of the most prosperous nation the Earth has ever been home to"

Define prosperous?

Legatum Prosperity Index

http://www.prosperity.com/rankings.aspx

Re: Constitutions

Ok I am a politician, I support the Constitution and I will describe why.

There is a need for stable, unchangable rights and responsibilities. There is also a need for limits to a government which the Government cannot pass.

This stability prevents a tyranny from changing of laws for emergencies, for 'interest of the public', or via other means.

Rights that are eternal are important. A structure all can work is important as well.

Stability, something you can always rely upon, is priceless. There is no better framework than some permament rights and restrictions.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Constitutions

Constitutions are horrible, and the United States is a perfect example of why. No matter how much you try to limit the government's scope and function, it will /always/ find a way to circumvent its limitations. Government is a parasite, mandated by its very nature to manufacture laws and increase its foothold over its citizens through extortion and even outright murder. It drains the most productive members of society, and encourages the impoverished to remain in their relative state of abject squalor, through the redistribution of wealth under the specious banner of helping your fellow man.

Robert LeFevre wrote a beautiful piece in 1959 called "The Nature of Man and His Government", which served as one of the catalysts in my personal transformation into a full-blooded anarcho-capitalist of the Austrian persuasion (although LeFevre himself preferred to be identified as an autarchist).

Caution Wake Turbulence

Re: Constitutions

I might be able to agree with you, Acolyte, about your view of government and thus your anarchistic stance, but so what? 

Even if the majority agreed with you, so what?

Even if everyone agreed with you, what could be done?

We are dependent on government institutions, and thus the chaos that would result from their abolishment would be catastrophic to human life.

The question is, then, how would one begin implementing a harmonious process of dismantlement of government?

I would start with working with government to encourage people to become self-sufficient in their production and maintenance of their own basic needs, which would then allow for self-sufficiency to be improved in other areas.

Re: Constitutions

People used to function with barely any government interference in their lives. And government didn't have to tell them how to survive. We never died out.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

12 (edited by Justinian I 27-May-2010 17:20:22)

Re: Constitutions

Would not an enlightened ruler benefit from governing with less presence over people's lives by enjoying fewer costs and an easier time delivering economic services to citizens, and therefore have less worry about public resistance? Further, by not interfering in the economy, would they not enjoy less competition from private interests, since wealth would be more widely distributed? Afterall, is it not government that causes huge companies to exist anyway?

Re: Constitutions

"would not an enlightened..." ?? Just use a contraction, your point isnt bolstered by a Dickens-esque attempt at sentence structure you douche.

Kemp: The operative phrase in that thought of yours was "used to."  Do you really believe that a form of government that worked for native american tribes or the early settlers would work for nearly 350 million human beings?  Times, demographics, and needs change.  Adapt.

People are, at their core, semi-retarded animals with no concept of the greater good.  If you decide to poop out another constitution, be sure to include a clause that limits the number of children to 1/2

> Justinian I wrote:
> Ouro,
Even though you were the first one to arrive at the scene who clearly pwned Einstein and showed how biased he is, you are an outright arsehole.

Re: Constitutions

For the libertarians


Monopolies:   allow or disallow?

Given a reason also.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Constitutions

allow regulated monopolies is my opinion.

if any monopoly is allowed at some time there can be a product that can be monopolised by 1 company without them having to work for ti. just buying or breaking new companies.

therefor a pure monopoly no.


one that is temporarely that can only be renewed by enough enovation to the product or redesigning the product to something better promotes R&D and therefore makes the company work for it( so they more or less deserve it) and even then there will always be slipups/company leaks/ etc. so no monopoly can last forever since the larger trees catch more wind everybody will be at their heels.


I say no to a complete ban on monopoly since having that as a company founder can be a huge motivation and some thing might never come to life if there is no chance of gaining a monopoly with it even if it's a temorary one.

Re: Constitutions

> Einstein wrote:

> For the libertarians


Monopolies:   allow or disallow?

Given a reason also.


^
How to Rob a Thread
by: A Jackass

> Justinian I wrote:
> Ouro,
Even though you were the first one to arrive at the scene who clearly pwned Einstein and showed how biased he is, you are an outright arsehole.

17 (edited by V.Kemp 27-May-2010 22:46:04)

Re: Constitutions

>>Times, demographics, and needs change.  Adapt.<<

That's the same explanation progressives give for our "inevitable" move to socialism. It's based upon false premises, but that doesn't stop people from making any number of claims with this explanation. People are perfectly capable of adapting on their own. They've done so for millions of years. They don't suddenly need you and your bright ideas to protect them from themselves. I looked it up. They really don't.

It is true that many things have changed. And there have been abuses left unchecked in the past that I'm not arguing should be left unchecked again. But this is a legitimate basis for new, smarter laws and law enforcement. People aren't inherently more of babies as you argue. They're only that way if that is what you actively make them. I agree that we should have laws and law enforcement that should actually serve us and not serve the interest of established business in stifling innovation by massively increasing start-up costs. I do not agree that, because the world's population has grown, they're inherently babies.

>>People are, at their core, semi-retarded animals with no concept of the greater good.<<

Which is precisely why it is bad to give these semi-retarded animals massive power over one another. Without massive government (increasing the cost of living and lowering the standard of living for everyone as a bonus), no semi-retarded animal can do monumental harm to his fellow man. Thank you for making my point for me. Everyone deserves all the best things they can attain for themselves in this world. (Not at the expense of wronging others. I'm a fan of reasonable laws and law enforcement.) It only hurts everyone to take what they attain for themselves. Well balanced children are taught not to take things that are not theirs. Now if only we could educate some adults and make them more well balanced people, less untaught children.

Edit: In case it's over anyone's head, all of this is exactly why [a small part of, anyway] the U.S. Constitution was written the way it was, with limitations of powers and checks and balances. The Founders of the United States of America didn't limit the power of the government they were creating because they couldn't have abused unlimited power and increased their wealth: They limited its power because they were educated men actually acting in the best interests of their people. They were scared shitless and knew that what they were doing was going to be very important for a lot of people for a long time, if they succeeded. They crafted this document with all of the abuses of their present world and knowledge of history in mind. A knowledge that isn't as spotty and willfully ignorant as the knowledge of many supposedly learned men today.

I think creating the government of a people that rose from a collection of immigrants to the sole superpower on planet Earth was a success. While I'm all about catching abuses that weren't always caught in the past, I think an educated man must be capable of looking at the success of the US Constitution and learning from it. I believe that to attack such a document as unjust because it doesn't give government the power to enforce "social justice" without being able to learn anything from it is rather ignorant. The US constitution doesn't allow the government to claim ownership of everything and everyone, which is what "social justice" requires of a government. I believe this was a good decision. Enjoy being a subject. I enjoy being a citizen.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Constitutions

No because the libertarians are saying Constitutions force power to go other routes or to reduce the Constitution.

It is my belief that some government is a neccessary thing, and thay a Constitution is a needful thing.


The Monopoly thing is an effort to establish that some laws are needful, thus validating a Government and a Constitution are needful.


I truly want Kemp and Acolyte to answer the question.




I will wait and see if they will.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Constitutions

I don't call myself a libertarian, nor do I have a simple answer for your question. While I agree with their principles of freedom and getting off my nuts, I have various strong disagreements with the positions of the Libertarian party. I'm aware of monopolies' detrimental effects.

Such cases as Microsoft forcing manufacturers to purchase overpriced software bundles (Windows is notoriously inefficient, garbage programming, and anyone who thinks it's coded well is as ignorant as Apple freaks. tongue) get complicated because of the particulars of the software industry and the necessity of compatibility in being functional for most any purpose.

So yeah I'm against monopolies. But I'm also against the sort of laws that Washington is capable of making today, which are incapable of managing the particulars of industries without causing massive harm. Against monopolies and supportive of appropriate and measured government action where appropriate, but skeptical of government action--as we all should be.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Constitutions

Ok then Kemp you support rule of law, but distrust the law. Even at the Constitutional level?

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Constitutions

A good Constitution is the basis for reasonable law. A bad constitution is the basis for being a slave to the state.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Constitutions

And our Constitution?

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Constitutions

the best constitution is one that is left so open to interpretation that it can be whatever you need it to be.

> Justinian I wrote:
> Ouro,
Even though you were the first one to arrive at the scene who clearly pwned Einstein and showed how biased he is, you are an outright arsehole.

Re: Constitutions

@xeno syndicated

We are only as dependent upon government institutions as the government monopolizes those institutions. I don't see any reason why the majority of services that people deem "public goods" could not, just as easily, be provided in a free market. Moreover, without the government's drain on the wallets of its citizens, everyone is that much more wealthier to purchase and save for the services they actually use.

I don't know how my vision of self-government could ever come to be, the methodology is a subject of heated debate in "ancap" circles. Theories range from "counter-economies" (like black and grey markets) that run on a private form of money (such as gold or silver); to nonviolent forms of civil disobedience; and some even view the Free State Project and its minarchist aims as a "useful idiot" for the eventual dismantling of the State. Some believe that nothing short of a violent revolution will rid us of the burden of centralized government. They get around the "initiation of force" clause by pointing out that the government initiates force first, every single day, and that a revolution would be billed as a defensive reaction.

For now, I believe the best we can do is spread the word and promote the cause to likeminded individuals, and hopefully persuade as many people as you can toward the idea that government -- all governments, everywhere -- are unjust and, frankly, immoral. From there it is my sincere belief that a solution will present itself.

@Einstein

Natural monopolies simply do not exist. The myth began by major utility companies -- such as water and power works -- soliciting government to stamp out imagined conflicts in the market. The reality of what was happening was these utility companies were attempting to rid themselves of the competition. And this practice continues today through the invention of the ambiguous anti-trust laws and intellectual property. Even if the conditions in a free market, at any one time, lead to the formation of a monopoly, it would be short-lived as there would be nothing to stop the threat of competition short of violence.

See: "The Myth of Natural Monopoly" by Thomas J. DiLorenzo, Ph.D, appearing in /The Review of Austrian Economics/ Vol. 9, No. 2 (1996), pp. 43-58. A digital copy of the article in PDF format is accessible here: http://mises.org/journals/rae/pdf/rae9_2_3.pdf

Caution Wake Turbulence

Re: Constitutions

So Microsoft is not, has not been, nor will be a monopoly?

I tend to eat Libertains, but especially no government types.



Also answer this question. Should there be limitations on those who can make nukes? Or even just own lots of radioactives?

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)