1 (edited by Justinian I 07-Jan-2010 10:48:01)

Topic: Causes of the US Civil War

I would like to know the actual political and economic causes of the civil war in the US. I do not buy the common explanation that the north was driven by a moral and noble cause to end slavery, because in fact every war that claims to be never is.

So far, I have this as the best explanation.

Lincoln desired to limit the further expansion of slavery. The reason was that the north desired that the frontiers be settled by whites who would own small farms. Having slave plantations would be an issue because northern whites did not want to live with blacks, and the non-southern interest groups saw security and economic advantages in the former. However, for the south this meant that their political representation would continue to decline. Their interests mattered less as more free states were added to the union, and they were all ready defending themselves from northern interests like the Morrill Tariff. With the election of Lincoln who promised to end any hope of gaining new political representation, the southern elites were consequently compelled to secede from the union in order to assert their own political and economic interests.

Any revisions or competing theories from the history buffs? The only problem I see with my theory is that the reasons for why the north did not want slavery to expand is inadequate. To remedy that problem they could have just lived separately from each other. Btw, any defense of the "Moral Crusade to End Slavery" hypothesis will be dismissed as invalid. I'm looking for plausible causes, not heroes that only exist in fantasy land.

Re: Causes of the US Civil War

> Justinian I wrote:

> I would like to know the actual political and economic causes of the civil war in the US. I do not buy the common explanation that the north was driven by a moral and noble cause to end slavery, because in fact every war that claims to be never is.



Lol... the main reason was to preserve the Union. You could look at abolishing slavery as an extra achievement after winning the war. So they had two choices, lose half the country and lots of agriculture or fight and take it back.

I thought this was pretty much common sense. Anyone that thinks slavery was the driving force is an idiot. Just a way to make the Northerners look like the good guys, propaganda at its finest.

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Re: Causes of the US Civil War

the north fought the war to preserve the union, why did the South secede? because Lincoln was a dick and they refused to serve him...

Re: Causes of the US Civil War

The goal of the war itself, from the North's own actions, was clearly to unify the nation, NOT to end slavery (initially).  It's a misconception that the divide between North and South was purely based on slavery, as some slave states did stay with the Union.  Lincoln made huge efforts to ensure that some slave states remained in the Union, primarily for strategic reasons ("I hope to have God on my side, but I must have Kentucky!" -Abraham Lincoln).

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Re: Causes of the US Civil War

Lincoln was the worst president ever. he alienated half the country to the point where they seceded before he was even sworn in. causing the greatest disaster in American history...

Re: Causes of the US Civil War

1. The north developed an industrial base during Jefferson's embargo of europe.  South did not, because that predated the cotton gin and their export economy.

2. South had an export economy around cotton.  To the South free trade meant easy exports and cheap imports, to the North it meant higher prices for American raw materials and foriegn competition with Yankee labor

3.  US constititution limited South to 22 Senators no matter what the population was, and their Representatives were tied to their percentage of the population.  It was essential to slave and trade interest of the south that new states have slaves and plantation economy so they'd vote with Dixie.

4.  main loyalty was to state rather than Union.  the South played up their martial history as places that had always been at war and won because they were better than lazy northern states full of Dutch, Germans and Irish and blacks.

5.  South maintained a legal theory that states could secede from teh union.  in 1815 Vermont and New hampshire were ready to secede over the British war but the british quit before their ultimatum reached Washington DC.  This theory was preserved in the South.

6.  Rising moral opposition to slavery was growing in the North.

7.  The Mexican War stretched the USA to the Pacific and forced the issue of slave and plantation expansion beyond Dixie all over the continent.

8.  A political compromise that new states would choose to be free or slave for themselves was exploded by the Dred Scott case, where the Supreme Court said an escaped slave was property, and no state could vote to steal property from an owner and then refuse to send the property back to the owner.  This mean every state was a slave state like it or not.

9. the entry of Kansas into the Union meant 2 more senators and some Representatives.  If they weren't a slave state that would have worsened Dixie's share in Congress, if they were a slave state that would maintain dixie's share.  Violent demonstrations broke out, and armed gangs rode into Kansas to shoot it out for their side of the issue.

10.  One of the Kansas guerrillas, John Brown, rode to Virginia and took over a federal arsenal at Harper's Ferry, took hostages in the town, and declared he would arm a slave revolt.  He was captured by US troops led by Robert E Lee.  Many Northerners said Brown had the right idea, Ralph Waldo Emerson said his gallows would be a cross, which to the South meant the North wanted them raped and hacked to death by rioting blacks.

11.  Some Congressman denounced slavery as degrading, and a Southern Congressman objected, and beat him with a stick on the floor of congress until he collapsed.  Southerners applauded and sent him sticks to hit him again.  To the North this proved those crackers were gorillas drunk on too much peach brandy and slave ass.

12.  when Lincoln was elected some states seized federal property.  A few federal officers were killed fighting over that.  To the south this proved the North started it.

13.  South Carolina ordered the garrison at Fort Sumter to haul down the flag.   The commander refused and teh fort was shelled with cannons and stormed.  To the North this proved the South wanted war.

14. everybody voted to raise an army for a good quick fight of a few months.

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Re: Causes of the US Civil War

The short answer is Federal Government vs State's Rights.

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Re: Causes of the US Civil War

It was about power in the house of representatives. Slavery was a cute after thought.

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Re: Causes of the US Civil War

too much coffee yikes

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Re: Causes of the US Civil War

i still like avo's idea, lincoln is a dick lol big_smile

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Re: Causes of the US Civil War

that;s one opinion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNBt4srCn84

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Re: Causes of the US Civil War

> Ehawk wrote:

> i still like avo's idea, lincoln is a dick lol big_smile


its not opinion, its fact. the South seceded in response to Lincoln being elected...

Re: Causes of the US Civil War

One theory is the brits, having lost the Revolutionary war instigated and loaned money to both sides of the war so as to at least retain fiscal control over the US if not full political control.

Re: Causes of the US Civil War

>its not opinion, its fact. the South seceded in response to Lincoln being elected...<

go whine to a Nez Perce about how awful bad the south got treated, just don't be alone when you do it

>One theory is the brits, having lost the Revolutionary war instigated and loaned money to both sides of the war so as to at least retain fiscal control over the US if not full political control.<
dunno what "the Brits" means, the British govt wanted totally out of it and after the war the debts of the confederacy were declared null and void.

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15 (edited by avogadro 08-Jan-2010 21:46:54)

Re: Causes of the US Civil War

im not whining about how the south was treated; im simply pointing out the fact that the South seceded in response to Lincoln being elected, and if Lincoln had been more diplomatic towards the south, the entire war could of been avoided...

Re: Causes of the US Civil War

I don't think so, since they started stealing stuff and would have been raising hell for 4 years

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Re: Causes of the US Civil War

what did they steal before Lincoln was elected?

Re: Causes of the US Civil War

"he British govt wanted totally out of it and after the war the debts of the confederacy were declared null and void."

And what of the Union debt?  And, by the way, do you know if it has even been paid off yet?

Re: Causes of the US Civil War

1. Dunno if the Union went too deeply into debt at all

2.  I'm sure whatever debts it had were soon gone. by 1880 the USA was one of the top 4 industrial economies on earth.  We ran Treasury surpluses for decades.

3. had we owed the UK something it would have been used up in WWI because they came out of that war owing us

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Re: Causes of the US Civil War

what did they steal before Lincoln was elected?

well how could he be "more diplomatic" before he got elected?  They looted federal arsenals, and regardless of theories of state soveriegnity, a federal base is US govt property all over the world

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21 (edited by avogadro 09-Jan-2010 05:22:12)

Re: Causes of the US Civil War

"well how could he be "more diplomatic" before he got elected?"

many southern states seceded between the time he was elected and the time he was inaugurated..  did the south find his name in itself offensive? no. his stances and his speeches before he was even elected resulted in southerners seceding, if he showed more concern towards the interests of the south, a civil war could of been avoided.

Re: Causes of the US Civil War

Judging by how the South ran itself between 1876 to 1964, concessions wouldn't worth it.

It only got better in 1964 because of amendments forced through by the victorious Union.

It was a good war.

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Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Causes of the US Civil War

> the entire war could of been avoided...

Better to annihilate your enemies now, then face them later
on their terms...

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Re: Causes of the US Civil War

i bet alot of the reason why the south was so reluctant to change after the war is because so many of their loved ones died defending against the change. the southern states that didnt secede had slaves after the war, they didnt need to be forced to give it up, they gave it up peacefully, something that could of been accomplished with the rest of the south had Lincoln not been so intolerant. you seriously think that if the war had not occurred slavery would still exist in the south? bullshit.

Re: Causes of the US Civil War

> Morbo the Annihilator wrote:

> > the entire war could of been avoided...

Better to annihilate your enemies now, then face them later
on their terms...


they werent our enemies, they were our brothers...