Topic: My Political Position and views

I am a "precinct committeeman"

You can become one as well with a form similar to this (USA only):

http://www.sos.state.or.us/elections/forms/sel105.pdf

This is a description of the position:

http://washcorep.org/sbcc/personalinfo.php?page=biography&seq=63


My core values(Dont assume everything is federal based):


No Late Term Abortions

Support the Constitution as seen by the Founders

Safety Net but nothing else socialistic

Abolition or Fragmentation of the Education Union(s)

No Subsidies PERIOD

No Earmarks PERIOD

Mandatory death sentence for high crimes and treason

Including fraud over 100 million dollars as a high crime

Non-Americans do not have US Constitutional Rights, this is for Americans, not you!

No Amnesty for illegal aliens, increase however legal immigration levels after kicking out all illegals.

Federal Government needs to be 15% of the current size (Excluding changes to military and intelligence services)

Limited Government controls over any industry, I understand the need for some controls over say hazardous materials and transporting them, but I do not understand trying to limit bonuses or payroll levels.

Flat Tax or Fair Tax.

Arresting Politicians who pass laws against the Constitution, such as gun control laws which are unconstitutional.

Fair Trade as defined by no taxes on goods in/out of either nation, no controls over currency of either nation to help that country, and no subsidies on goods of either nation.
State rights, State competition, and State level laws on most things

Ending of Roe vs Wade since this is not a federal matter, if you do not like your states abortions laws vote out the government there or move to one you do like.

Term Limits to 12 total years as Senator or Representative (24 between the two) to the United States Federal Government, as well as the current 8 year limit on Presidents.

The daily bombing of Iran until their government is overthrown or they cease their nuclear ambitions (We offered 4 nuclear reactors that cannot make bombs, they said no, they want a bomb, this is clear)

The allowing of humane torture methods which leave no long term harm the recipitant so long as this person is a terrorist or non-uniformed combatant for critical intelligence purposes, on no more than 60 persons a year.

No problems with wire tapping the rest of the world

Changing the FCC's functions to that of a wholesaler of air waves and contract enforcer with no other purposes

Fining the media for any deliberate political lies, such as the CBS faked papers, the exploding Ford fake up, etc.

The elimination of the rights of unions to bargain for collective income levels, a return of individual income negotiations.

Offering Prizes for scientific competitions that are not based on politics, and no direct funding of sciences by the Federal Government.

Global Warming is a farce, climate change has occurred throughout the history of the world, and Human Impact upon climate change is so insignificant that it has no effect upon modifying world temperature past .01 degrees over 100 years at most, and that enough science exists to completely destroy arguments to cut emissions, to control emissions, or that humans can positively affect the environment

Cap and Trade is a scam and needs to be treated as such

Corporate taxes need to be reduced, I am negotiable on the level

Taxes on non-land property should not exist ever

Taxes on the stock market, health benefits, or anything not directly accountable as income should not exist ever

Capital Taxes should be very very low.

Charitable giving should be 100% tax deductible

The government should only buy autos which meet the lowest cost ratio for life span, repair needs, fuel costs, and standard maintenance.

ACORN needs to be monitored like a hawk for illegal activities.

Most Environmental laws need to be scaled down for having over-reached and for having been made with lies (Such as Asbesto's (Two types, on dangerous one not), DDT, and other attacks)

Selling significant portions of Federal Lands when recessions happen to make up gaps in the Federal Budget

Scaling back Clinton and Obama's protected land changes

Zoning Sense laws, at the State Levels, not Federal

Yucca Mountain as a nuclear repository

Nuclear Power with only regulations that the plants wont hazard those around them and no issues with placement.

Health Care Personal Accounts

Restructuring Social Security to allow for personal control over the funds

Teaching Creationism in schools

Teaching ETHICS in schools

Elimination of revisionist history in schools, and enforcement of text books fighting any revisionist history efforts

Promises to kill the leaders of any democide, genocide, or other major mass murder. And the follow through of such.

Airing the truth about Hamas and Hezbollah and removing the romantic views of them

Installation of a counter propaganda department with aims to air out other nations contrived propaganda

The by force Annexation of Mexico with a surge of law enforcement officers to restore order and law in Mexico. No citizen rights for Mexicans, or thier first generation of children, but permament resident rights which can be revoked for any felonies.

Ending of the right of those born in the United States to be US citizens upojn birth, citizenship
will require birth to a US citizen.

Drill Here, Drill Now

Rainy Day funds are smart business

No gay Marriage, but any other title they want to it and in effect same rights, but at the same time allowing bigamy as well. Or neither and lets call it a day.

Individuals can pray in school, in the government, etc, but no government policy can enforce any religion over another. Even if the individuals are government employees so long as they are not the supervisors of that government. This includes allowing for prayer/silent time in schools

School Vouchers, School Vouchers, School Vouchers

Creation of a smart cyber-police force with powers to send viruses to infect those downloading illegal files and to shut off the internet access of spammers (email) and those uploading illegal files, as well as to penalize those people and hot list them to all providers until the fines are paid.

No menu calorie listing controls, no food source listing requirements, no efforts to force people to be vegetarians or to control their diets at all.

Every other year increase in the age allowed for smoking, so say in 2010 you have to be 19 to buy cigs, 2012 you have to be 20 to buy cigs, 2014 you have to be 21 to buy cigs, and so forth.
No changes to cigars at this juncture as this is not so much an issue and it is used differently at this moment.

Splitting Microsoft in half for monopoly type actions

A mostly anonymous internet

Requiring a dual party per politician system (An invention of mine, I will post later)

Limiting the income to a government via traffic fines to 1% of their total incoming revenue and refunds back to those fined if they exceed until the level is 1% or less.

The impeachment of Obama for bankrupting the nation

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: My Political Position and views

hehehe thanks for the giggles. I'm not a liberal and I'm not against everything you say ( I didnt read the whole thing, but I'm not against all that I read) but some of them are quite funny indeed. Perhaps I'll post after lunch and after doing a bit of proper work today.

Gondor: wtf, im not even mentioned. I was the glue to this family. Thats BS!
Econ: Gondor, if you were the glue, then I was the glue sticky thing that applies the glue.
(edit: I believe that's called the brush).
Torqez: Econ you forgot the part where you say "and I made Torqez delete!"

Re: My Political Position and views

I got about 3/4 the way down and couldn't be arsed reading the rest... flint you have proved yourself to be a complete idiot with these views and from now on I don't think your oppinion should count for anything, ever...



actually one point needs to be singled out for further ridicule

Teaching Creationism in schools

so should we also teach ancient roman and greek mythology as a viable history of the earth? How about we just shoot people stupid enough to think creationism is a science? If you want to teach bible studies at a school allow for the parents at a school to vote on a religious studies (RS) class, and give them the right to pull kids out and have a study clkass run parellel to the RS class. The RS should then teach the mythology of all the religions the parents voted on (say with votes over 10%?)

There you have your class where you can cram young people full of your propaganda and you don't need to diminish science by trying to pretend that creationism is part of it..

Also flint you are an idiot... a big fat stupid one

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

4 (edited by Econamatrix 20-Mar-2009 21:23:02)

Re: My Political Position and views

> You_Fool wrote:

> I got about 3/4 the way down and couldn't be arsed reading the rest... flint you have proved yourself to be a complete idiot with these views and from now on I don't think your oppinion should count for anything, ever...



> actually one point needs to be singled out for further ridicule

> Teaching Creationism in schools


I didnt read that one as part of my selection. I like your points though You_Fool. We could call it Mythology Studies. We could put up pictures of all the Greek & Roman Gods, "God", Maui (who created NZ's North Island - it was a giant fish before he fished it up), and lots of other historical legends.

We could ask the students "What's the difference between all of these?"

The correct answer is something like: They are all nice stories from old books that people have been fooled into believing, and in the future, that "current God" will look just as silly as the Greek, Roman, etc ones from the past. It's a trick question 'cause there is no difference.

oh hell I'll start replying about some of these other points Flint has posted.

Gondor: wtf, im not even mentioned. I was the glue to this family. Thats BS!
Econ: Gondor, if you were the glue, then I was the glue sticky thing that applies the glue.
(edit: I believe that's called the brush).
Torqez: Econ you forgot the part where you say "and I made Torqez delete!"

Re: My Political Position and views

> Einstein wrote:

My core values(Dont assume everything is federal based):

> No Late Term Abortions
Agree

> Support the Constitution as seen by the Founders
Don't know enough to comment (I'll just delete the rest that fall into this category, or ones I don't feel like talking about).

> Safety Net but nothing else socialistic
Agree to a certain extent; depends on how big your Safety Net is.

> No Subsidies PERIOD

> No Earmarks PERIOD
Think I agree with these... haven't seen enough examples to know.

> Mandatory death sentence for high crimes and treason
Undecided

> Including fraud over 100 million dollars as a high crime
Undecided but they probably deserve it :-P

>No Amnesty for illegal aliens, increase however legal immigration levels after kicking out all illegals.
I don't like aliens in NZ. But in the US don't they make up a big percentage of the work force. Will an unemployed... say... Ford car designer go work in the toilet cleaning business?

>Federal Government needs to be 15% of the current size (Excluding changes to military and intelligence services)
Nice idea but dont think it's possible, at all.

> The daily bombing of Iran until their government is overthrown or they cease their nuclear ambitions (We offered 4 nuclear reactors that cannot make bombs, they said no, they want a bomb, this is clear)
Hahaha. Funny. How many terrorists do you want to create?

> The allowing of humane torture methods which leave no long term harm the recipitant so long as this person is a terrorist or non-uniformed combatant for critical intelligence purposes, on no more than 60 persons a year.
You value the 'life' of an embryo above the life of the person it could save, yet it's ok to "humanely torture" (is there such a word) 60 people a year? Why not 6000? Your views upon life are twisted in the extreme.

> No problems with wire tapping the rest of the world
Sure, if we can all work together to wire tap you.

> Fining the media for any deliberate political lies, such as the CBS faked papers, the exploding Ford fake up, etc.
Faux news would be bankrupt.

> Offering Prizes for scientific competitions that are not based on politics, and no direct funding of sciences by the Federal Government.
What kind of prizes if there is no funding by Fed? Doesn't make too much sense. Look at a list of things discovered by Fed funding, you'll be surprised.

>Global Warming is a farce,
See other thread

>Capital Taxes should be very very low.
No Capital Gains Tax in NZ :-P

> The government should only buy autos which meet the lowest cost ratio for life span, repair needs, fuel costs, and standard maintenance.
fair enough

> Most Environmental laws need to be scaled down for having over-reached and for having been made with lies (Such as Asbesto's (Two types, on dangerous one not), DDT, and other attacks)
Nope. I want to be able to live in a nice place. But they don't need to be rediculous and over the top (can't build a rail road because there's a bug there etc).

Selling significant portions of Federal Lands when recessions happen to make up gaps in the Federal Budget
> Do you buy it back in good times? What happens when there is none left?

> Nuclear Power with only regulations that the plants wont hazard those around them and no issues with placement.
Although I like Nuclear power, we need R&D and investment in other areas. Fuel won't last for ever.

> Teaching Creationism in schools
So poor, so so poor. See other post.

> Elimination of revisionist history in schools, and enforcement of text books fighting any revisionist history efforts
So new information comes to light, some old scroll gets discovered, a new translation of an old text is made, but we can't make revisions to history? Does it get too confusing for you if stuff is changed? Granted I don't know what's happening so I could be missunderstanding the where your problem lies.

> Installation of a counter propaganda department with aims to air out other nations contrived propaganda
In other words, another US propaganda machine?

> The by force Annexation of Mexico with a surge of law enforcement officers to restore order and law in Mexico. No citizen rights for Mexicans, or thier first generation of children, but permament resident rights which can be revoked for any felonies.
hehehe. Lawlessness isn't cool, but this is just funny.

> Drill Here, Drill Now
To get at that 2% of the world's oil? What about those Polar bears? Poor guys.

> Individuals can pray in school, in the government, etc, but no government policy can enforce any religion over another. Even if the individuals are government employees so long as they are not the supervisors of that government. This includes allowing for prayer/silent time in schools
What a waste. Pray at home, I'm sure Gods understanding and merciful and understands if you have some mathematics that you really need to learn in the limited time you have at school.


> Creation of a smart cyber-police force with powers to send viruses to infect those downloading illegal files and to shut off the internet access of spammers (email) and those uploading illegal files, as well as to penalize those people and hot list them to all providers until the fines are paid.
What happens when there is a mistake? Free new computer from the Fed?

>No menu calorie listing controls, no food source listing requirements, no efforts to force people to be vegetarians or to control their diets at all.
Dumb ass. I'm healthy, I eat responsible, but that doesn't mean I always know what's in my food. I want to be informed.  Just cause you'd eat anything that's thrown in front of you.

>Every other year increase in the age allowed for smoking, so say in 2010 you have to be 19 to buy cigs, 2012 you have to be 20 to buy cigs, 2014 you have to be 21 to buy cigs, and so forth.
No changes to cigars at this juncture as this is not so much an issue and it is used differently at this moment.
Agree. I'd remove cigs from the planet if I could.

> Requiring a dual party per politician system (An invention of mine, I will post later)
I'd rather there were more viable parties in the US to create that competition you love so much and provide more options for what laws, policies, etc people want implemented.

> Limiting the income to a government via traffic fines to 1% of their total incoming revenue and refunds back to those fined if they exceed until the level is 1% or less.
Probably fair enough. I like to get where I'm going without screwing around. But if no one got tickets, everyone would speed, more people would die. Please don't try argue that one!

Gondor: wtf, im not even mentioned. I was the glue to this family. Thats BS!
Econ: Gondor, if you were the glue, then I was the glue sticky thing that applies the glue.
(edit: I believe that's called the brush).
Torqez: Econ you forgot the part where you say "and I made Torqez delete!"

Re: My Political Position and views

Actually reading that i reaslised there were more that needed mocking:

>> Offering Prizes for scientific competitions that are not based on politics, and no direct funding of sciences by the Federal Government.<<

As you say who funds it then? industry? Cause they are real fair and balanced people who will sooo not try and give funding to only projects that interest them...


>> Elimination of revisionist history in schools, and enforcement of text books fighting any revisionist history efforts <<

I think he is upset at the idea of people going abck and rewriting history so that their political views are put forward in their version of history... you know like saying ti was bad when the white man screwed over the black man, that gays have always been ok and that the american white man isn't the greatest human on the face of the planet..

>>No menu calorie listing controls, no food source listing requirements, no efforts to force people to be vegetarians or to control their diets at all.<<

Flint is fat and stupid, he is annoyed that others can make informed choises when he is too stupid to realise...

>> Fining the media for any deliberate political lies, such as the CBS faked papers, the exploding Ford fake up, etc. <<

Exploding ford fake up? I hope he isn't trying to say that the Pinto was somehow made up by communists or something?

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: My Political Position and views

Wheres Decimus when you need him.

Its so hilarious that flints wants to remove nutrition facts from food products lol

LORD HELP OREGON

Re: My Political Position and views

yeah i know...

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: My Political Position and views

1) Offering Prizes for scientific competitions that are not based on politics, and no direct funding of sciences by the Federal Government.


This means the government does not tell scientist a he can have 1 trillion dollars, and instead sets up a prize for the research desired in question.

This is used by the Department of Defense very successfully. They offer a million dollar prize here and there for certain innovations. If the bars set prove to be to high for any of the competitors then they lower it the next year to a more feasible level.

An instance of this in action is self driving vehicles. When instituted they had a route on a military base with some concrete and some off road. The requirements to win was for a vehicle to generally follow the required path, to stay functional, and to drive itself entirely.

The first year none succeeded, but several almost did except what everyone agreed was minor hiccups for the designs.

The next year several succeeded on the same exact test.

The later test involved simulated city driving. This included road signs, speed limit changes, etc.

To many vehicles passed that test then. So the DoD has increased the requirements to something fierce for the final version.


When this is done cargo touting vehicles will be able to drive themselves safely, following all traffic laws, and without the need for humans.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: My Political Position and views

Flint, were you abused by black people as a child?

Re: My Political Position and views

no, he got dropped on his head sad

<@Nolio> Ilu was the man back in the day,he even made monkeywrench and arganon look good for half a round =p
<@iluvatar> it is my grandest achievement
<@Nolio> *half a round  =p
<@iluvatar> still
* Final_Doom is now known as Thanks_Iluvatar

Re: My Political Position and views

re-writing of history is a good example.

For instance there are those who teach there was NO REASON for using nukes on Japan.

These people ignore many different evidences, and go for their own revisionist history.

The President himself (at that time) laid down why he used such fearsome weapons.

But since most here are uneducated I shall lay down the lessons


Iwo Jima, the Philippines, the Bataan Death March and related prisoner mass executions, the India Jungle Work Camps, the Raping of Nanking, the Balloon Bombs, evidence from a captured U-Boat of an active Japanese Atomic program (which we now had some of the German radioactives that were going to be given to the Japanese), Kamikaze pilots, U-Boat aircraft carriers, and the Japanese belief the Emperor was a GOD.

Japan had several WMD programs in ACTION with delivery due in the United States except our nukes cut that short. This included a dirty bomb in San Fransisco and biological/chemical attacks on the west coast with several submarine carriers.


The Japanese scared us with their fanaticalism. They would fight to the death, or kill themselves if they could not fight. If they could not kill themselves they were killed rather than be left for the Americans to capture.

The Japanese had a saying from the high command about new soldiers, "they only cost postage". Yet you will not learn this in any classroom.


Remember also we had completely and entirely won the cryptography and encryption war with the Japanese and Germans, we knew what was in their proverbial mail.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: My Political Position and views

I know why the atomic bombs were dropped, and they were valid reasons. It's unfortunate but it was the right decision to make. So I didn't read your post, but thanks anyway.

So tell me instead, are schools really teaching that they were dropped for the wrong reasons or that they shouldn't have been dropped at all?

Gondor: wtf, im not even mentioned. I was the glue to this family. Thats BS!
Econ: Gondor, if you were the glue, then I was the glue sticky thing that applies the glue.
(edit: I believe that's called the brush).
Torqez: Econ you forgot the part where you say "and I made Torqez delete!"

Re: My Political Position and views

>>Yet you will not learn this in any classroom. <<

Correction, you will not learn this in any US class room

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: My Political Position and views

> You_Fool wrote:

> >>Yet you will not learn this in any classroom. <<

>Correction, you will not learn this in any US class room

shhhhh...... You could be justifying his political position, as given in the first post, by saying that.

Gondor: wtf, im not even mentioned. I was the glue to this family. Thats BS!
Econ: Gondor, if you were the glue, then I was the glue sticky thing that applies the glue.
(edit: I believe that's called the brush).
Torqez: Econ you forgot the part where you say "and I made Torqez delete!"

Re: My Political Position and views

No i am saying that his political position is based on the fact nhis country (one of the most right wing nations) has gone to shit, whilst our much more left leaning one has not..

Of course this doesn't talk about his stupid over-reaction to stupid US schools... thats for another post if i can be arsed


i don't think i will, it is hard to argue with a stupid fat man...

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: My Political Position and views

I like to call us central. The current rightish wing government has implemented several leftish wing policies. I like them.

I have essentially given up on the discussions here for the moment. It takes too much time I don't have. I gave up another time when they said it wasn't ok for a little girl to write to the government to ask for help - that was the most amazingly pathetic thing I had ever heard, and so left for a while!

I have another thread I'd like to start, but not sure if I have time.

Gondor: wtf, im not even mentioned. I was the glue to this family. Thats BS!
Econ: Gondor, if you were the glue, then I was the glue sticky thing that applies the glue.
(edit: I believe that's called the brush).
Torqez: Econ you forgot the part where you say "and I made Torqez delete!"

Re: My Political Position and views

Yes there were Aussies, English, Canadians, etc etc etc.

However the reason we feel the way we do is historical in nature, something your education seems to have overlooked.

Russia was going to collapse to Germany. It was American guns, American Ammunition, American Aircraft, American steel, American parts, American Food that saved Russia.

People talk that the Russian forces won the war. Yes a lot of them died for their victory, and I wont say they were not the 2nd biggest factor, but to Americans who KNOW, the United States was everywhere and anywhere, and did the hard things needed, as well as the smart things needed to win the war

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

19 (edited by Justinian I 20-Mar-2009 23:31:13)

Re: My Political Position and views

Probably the other half of the reason Germany lost was because Hitler was an incompetent strategist who tried to dictate strategy and tactics himself.

Otherwise, teaching creationism is a big no no.

Re: My Political Position and views

"Revisionist history" WTF could you possibly mean by that unless you mean its not "official history"

what you  call "revisionist history", 9 times out of 10 is the truth coming out later, after the government propoganda that you are so happy to swallow.

E.g Official history: "Irag had weapons of mass destruction, we had to invade because the world was in danger"

Revisionist history?: "There were no "WMDs" , The reason USA invaded was to remove a large amount of the worlds oil reserves from under the control of  an uncooperative government."

Re: My Political Position and views

> Selur Ku wrote:

Revisionist history?: "There were no "WMDs" , The reason USA invaded was to remove a large amount of the worlds oil reserves from under the control of  an uncooperative government.">

And there's nothing wrong with that, and second people shouldn't be told that. Once people realize that government is motivated by power and profit, I fear a resurgence of political radicalism.

Re: My Political Position and views

I believe something like 7% of Russia's resources in WW2 came from the US. Please, correct me if Im wrong with some decent source and maybe I'll change my opinion. I don't see many others here capable of that.

Gondor: wtf, im not even mentioned. I was the glue to this family. Thats BS!
Econ: Gondor, if you were the glue, then I was the glue sticky thing that applies the glue.
(edit: I believe that's called the brush).
Torqez: Econ you forgot the part where you say "and I made Torqez delete!"

Re: My Political Position and views

When the program had been terminated in 1945, over $50 billion in Lend-Lease aid had been shipped to Great Britain, the USSR, and China. The United States helped Great Britain a great deal but the amount given does not compare to the aid that the USSR received. Great Britain received 7,411 aircraft, 5,128 tanks, 4,932 antitank weapons, 4,005 machine guns, 9 torpedo boats, 4 submarines, and 14 minesweepers. Great Britain's aid was in the thousands but the USSR's was in the millions. Beginning in the summer of 1941, the United States contributed the following materials to the USSR: 2,680,000 tons of steel 170,400 tons of aluminum 29,400 tons of tin 240,000 tons of copper, 330,000 telephone sets and some one million miles of cable 2,000 radar sets 5,000 radio receivers 900,000 tons of projectiles and explosives 3,786,000 tires 49,000 tons of leather 18 million pairs of shoes more than six million tons of provisions three million tons of gasoline 900,000 tons of chemical products and 700,000 trucks. Much of this was delivered to factories for the manufacture of sheet aluminum, rubber and pipelines Most of the aid the United States offered went to the USSR as one can see by the number of supplies sent.


Trying to find stats on aircraft and tanks.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: My Political Position and views

In two particular areas the help was indispensable. With major agricultural regions of the Soviet Union under enemy occupation, and the unsatisfactory system of distribution and transportation, to say nothing of mismanagement, the Soviet state had more than a nodding acquaintance with famine. Without Western aid, during the war the Soviet population would have been in danger of sharing the fate of those trapped in Leningrad and the earlier victims of collectivization. Even with the American aid, many Russians died from lack of food. Equally important was Lend-Lease

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: My Political Position and views

Hmm nice, but i dont agree on all

here are my feelings on some of these subjects



One of the most compelling reasons for Western Allied assistance to the Soviet Union was the incredible heavy losses of weapons and equipment caused by the German invasion. The following few examples illustrate the severity of the Russian losses. The percentage of Weapons available, lost by Soviet Forces during 1941:
56% of all Small-arms and Machine guns.
69% of all Anti-Tank guns.
59% of all Field guns and Mortars.
72% of all Tanks.
34% of all Combat Aircraft.
Approximately 20,000 Tanks and 10,000 Combat Aircraft were lost by Soviet forces in this period.
The Response Of The Western Allies
All of these factors, combined with suffering the above heavy combat losses, obviously caused serious shortfalls of equipment for the Soviet armed forces during their initial year of the war with Germany. From the Western Allied point of view something needed to be done if the Soviets were going to keep up the fight against the Germans. When Stalin met with the Western Allies, after forming an uneasy alliance with them, he asked for their assistance. The British and the Americans both stepped in to keep Russia in the war. This was done even though the Allies and especially the Soviets had been suspicious of each other's intentions since before the Russo-German Non-Aggression Pact of 1939. The existing American program of Lend-Lease was now extended to include the Soviet Union with other nations in the war to defeat the Germans. Throughout the war attempts by the Western Allies to coordinate war production with the Soviets were also frustrated by Stalin's suspicions and secrecy. The U.S. and British basically agreed that Russians could order what they needed and the Allies would do their best to get the war material to Russia. This was done by direct convoys to Murmansk, overland through Iran, and from Alaska to the Soviet Far East. The large number of cargo ships moving long distances through dangerous waters resulted in the German U-boats and Luftwaffe sometimes extracting a heavy price for getting the material to Russia. The American and British shipments most notably in the Northern Arctic route resulted in the loss of 58 ships and damage to many others. That was just over 7% of all ships that sailed to Russia. These shipping losses and damage to others, represented a loss of approximately 5,000 vehicles, 4,000 aircraft and over 200,000 tons of other war materials.

Despite this most of the Lend-Lease materials that were sent in 1941-42 were received when they were needed the most. Additionally, some of the equipment and materials were sent without that much regard as to how useful it would be. While the shipments included much equipment the British and Americans considered to be obsolescent or obsolete, the Russians were for the most part grateful to receive it. Most items were put to use by the Soviets despite disparaging comments about some of the tanks, aircraft and anti-tank guns. After the war the Soviets were more forthcoming about the more useful items. Explosive materials, 100+ octane aviation fuel, trucks, waterproof telephone wire and radios had in particular played an important part in the War against the Germans.
Lend-Lease Artillery Shipments
The Russians felt that they had sufficient production of field artillery and mortars, and knew their production would increase due to manufacturing facilities resuming output after being relocated to the Urals and Siberia. They did need AA and AT guns more urgently but after receiving the first shipments of British and American AT guns they were not impressed with them. The Soviets did not request any further numbers of them. The Soviets were however satisfied with the Allied anti-aircraft guns and requested them to supplement the low numbers of Soviet AA guns produced through-out the war. Factors that resulted in desiring Allied AA guns were probably due to receiving them with superior aiming equipment than their own and Soviet difficulties in manufacturing AA guns.
British Gun Shipments Qty. Shipped Qty. Received
the planes arrived, usually when pilots delivered them. All of the arrived
numbers are an educated guess, due to incomplete bookkeeping,
shipping losses and contradictory sources.
As mentioned earlier the Allies shipped a total of 476,000 tons of 100 octane aviation fuel that was also one of the more important items received. Production of this fuel was necessary to considerably enhance aircraft performance. It required sophisticated refining equipment and advanced techniques of production that the Soviets were short of.
Lend-Lease Military Equipment Misc.
5.5 Million Combat boots
23 million yards of army cloth for uniforms, etc.
Misc. rucksacks, bedding, blankets, tents and cots
Misc. saddles, harnesses and 93,000 tons of jute.
And the most valuable of item of all: gold braid to decorate their Soviet uniforms
Lend-Lease Communications, Rail and Naval Equipment
Over 2 million feet of waterproof telephone wire sent. This was a very important commodity that requires precise quality control standards. The Russian-made wire on the other hand, was substandard and had a reputation for always having a leak or short in it somewhere. The Lend-Lease cable was considerably more reliable. Since the Russians preferred using wire communications over wireless radios (so the Germans could not listen in on them) it was considered one of the more valuable items.
56,500 field telephones and 245,000 wireless radios for field and vehicle use.
1,000 locomotives and 250,000 tons of steel rails.
Miscellaneous Rail switching and signaling equipment.
520 Ships, tugs, barges and miscellaneous vessels that included 4 older Capital Ships, 33 Subchasers, 22 Minesweepers and 12 Gunboats.
1,111 - 20mm naval AA guns as well as several hundred torpedoes.
Lend-Lease Misc. Raw Materials, Tooling, Construction And Mfg. Equipment
1.2 million tons of steel in the form of slabs

quantities. So the tank had to be improvised, having a 75mm gun mounted to one side of the body, and a small turret with a 37mm gun. The armor was riveted together due to the casting problem. Unfortunately it was found out if the tank hull was struck by a shell, even if it did not penetrate the armor, it would result in rivets popping off into the interior of the tank. This caused high crew casualties. Additionally the Grant was rather tall and thus an easy German target. The Soviets used it anyway, despite the depressing nickname "a grave for seven brothers". The U.S. eventually solved the casting problem and decided to produce a more improved tank known as the M4 Sherman.
Lend-Lease Motor Transport
The most important vehicles that the Allies supplied were trucks and jeeps. Soviet manufactured trucks were copies of 1930-era designs and did not have the cross-country abilities of the more modern vehicles provided by the Allies. The amounts shipped to Russia included; 197,825 - 1 1/2 ton trucks, 210,000 - 2 1/2 ton trucks, 12,000 jeeps and automobiles, 52,000 motorcycles, 4,000 ordinance and fuel hauling vehicles, 8,000 trailers, and 2 million miscellaneous tires.
The Soviets produced an estimated 281,500 trucks during the War, and made use of many captured vehicles. The Allies sent just over 400,000 trucks, these higher quality Lend-Lease trucks greatly facilitated Soviets in mounting offensives at a faster pace, that eventually got them to Berlin. Without them they undoubtedly would have had to manufacture trucks instead of AFV's and other equipment, causing the War in the East to be prolonged. For example: In Koniev's initial offensive in April 1945 to take Berlin, 15,000 of the 18,000 trucks in his Motor Transport Regiments moving ammunition and food around and to the front were Lend-Lease trucks.
Lend-Lease Aircraft And Fuel
The Soviets produced an estimated 101,000 combat aircraft during the War, supplementing their airforce with an estimated 15,000 following list of Lend-Lease aircraft:
Single-Engine Fighters Shipped Lost In Transit Arrived
P-39/P-400 Aircobra 4,719 Unknown 3,200 est.
P-40F Kittyhawk 4,017 Unknown 2,975 est.
P-47C Thunderbolt 195 0 195
P-63 King Cobra 2,456 67 2,389
British Hurricane 2,952 Unknown 2,250 est.
British Spitfire 1,331 Unknown 1,000 est.
Twin-Engine Aircraft
A-20 Havoc (Various Versions) 2,908 Unknown 2,600 est.



As mentioned earlier the Allies shipped a total of 476,000 tons of 100 octane aviation fuel that was also one of the more important items received. Production of this fuel was necessary to considerably enhance aircraft performance. It required sophisticated refining equipment and advanced techniques of production that the Soviets were short of.
Lend-Lease Military Equipment Misc.
5.5 Million Combat boots
23 million yards of army cloth for uniforms, etc.
Misc. rucksacks, bedding, blankets, tents and cots


Additionally, the Allies shipped 2,400 miscellaneous field guns and mortars, 81,000 machine guns (both field and aircraft types), and misc. flame-throwers, rifles, pistols, hand grenades and mines.
Lend-Lease Ammunition And Explosives
The Allies supplied 317,000 tons of explosive materials including 22 million shells that was equal to just over half of the total Soviet production of approximately 600,000 tons. Additionally the Allies supplied 103,000 tons of toluene, the primary ingredient of trinitrotoluene (more commonly known as TNT) while Soviet manufacture totaled 116,000 tons. If the Allies had not shipped these amounts of explosive materials, the Soviets undoubtedly would have had even more serious ammunition problems in addition to all their other shortcomings. The Soviet's ammunition shortages, mainly early in the war, caused them to be conservative with artillery shells and reinforced the use of their field guns in direct fire mode. This was done even though it brought greater risk to the artillery crews and their guns. The shortage of radios, field telephones, faulty communications wire further exacerbated the Soviet lack of artillery flexibility until the Allies provided more communications equipment. The Allies shipped, in addition to explosives and ammunition, 991 million miscellaneous shell cartridges to speed up the manufacturing of ammunition.
Lend-Lease Armored Fighting Vehicles
There were differences in opinions as far as lend-lease tanks were concerned. The Kremlin officials were generally happy with them initially to bridge shortfalls between Russian production quotas and their heavy combat losses. The Soviet tankers who used them on the other hand, had a fair share of disparaging comments in particular for the British tanks and the U.S. Grant tank. When the Soviets received some of the more advanced tank models like the M4 Sherman/76 they began to realize that some Allied tanks had some features that were superior to their own. Allied tanks that had a stabilized gun, radio, and were very reliable vehicles made a great impression on the Russians.
ARMORED FIGHTING VEHICLES QTY. SHIPPED LOST AT SEA QTY. ARRIVED
Bren Carriers 2,560 224 2336
M3 Halftracks 1,178 Unknown 900 est.
M3A1 Scout Cars 3,340 228 3092
M15A1 .37mm AA Guns 100 0 100
M17 4 X .50 AA Guns 1,000 Unknown 900 est.
T48 57mm A-T Gun Carriage 650 Unknown 575
M10 76mm Tank Destroyer 52 0 52
M3A1 Stuart 1,676 443 1233
Valentine 3,807 320 3487
Churchill 301 43 258
M3A3 Lee/Grant 1,386 Unknown 1,200 est.
Matilda II 1,084 252 832
M4A2 75mm Sherman 2,007 Unknown 1,750 est.
M4A2 76mm Sherman 2,095 Unknown 1,850 est.
There were at least 417 U.S. Medium Tanks And Halftracks Lost At Sea. A detailed
accounting is not available. Total tanks delivered came to approx. 11,000 and
8,000 other AFV's. Soviet total production numbered approx. 98,000 for all
AFV's. Just as a reference - the Germans started Barbarossa on June 22,
1941 with approx. 3,500 tanks and assault guns (including PzKw I's). All
quantity arrived numbers are an educated guess, due to incomplete
bookkeeping, shipping losses and contradictory sources.
A point often overlooked is the proportion of tanks that Allied Lend-Lease shipments represented. The British shipped some 14% of its own total tank production to Russia in 1941-1942, when it needed them most for its own forces in the Middle East who were also short of tanks. Most of all Canadian AFV production was also shipped to Russia arriving in the first year and a half of the War when they were sorely needed. These tanks supplemented Soviet production at a critical time. Here are some problems Russians noted concerning the tanks that were sent even though the British did make good use of them in Africa:
A-12 Matilda - Though it had a good reputation as a well-armored vehicle (especially the side skirts), it suffered from being slower than Russians preferred; having poor cross country speed in addition to having a small 2-pounder main gun. The Soviets only used them on a limited basis for this reason.
Mk III Valentine - A design by Vickers that was submitted to the War Office on Valentine's Day In 1938, from where this tank got its name. Mechanically it was one of the most reliable British vehicles ever manufactured, but again suffered from poor cross country speed and the same small 2-pounder main gun. So, here again the Soviets only put it to limited use.
M3 Lee\Grant Tanks - When the United States rearmed in 1940 they saw France overrun by the German panzers and felt they had to build a tank with thick armor and a powerful gun. The tank designers ran into an unforeseen problem, there were not currently any U.S. foundries capable of manufacturing large castings of turrets and hulls in large quantities. So the tank had to be improvised, having a 75mm gun mounted to one side of the body, and a small turret with a 37mm gun. The armor was riveted together due to the casting problem. Unfortunately it was found out if the tank hull was struck by a shell, even if it did not penetrate the armor, it would result in rivets popping off into the interior of the tank. This caused high crew casualties. Additionally the Grant was rather tall and thus an easy German target. The Soviets used it anyway, despite the depressing nickname "a grave for seven brothers". The U.S. eventually solved the casting problem and decided to produce a more improved tank known as the M4 Sherman.
Lend-Lease Motor Transport
The most important vehicles that the Allies supplied were trucks and jeeps. Soviet manufactured trucks were copies of 1930-era designs and did not have the cross-country abilities of the more modern vehicles provided by the Allies. The amounts shipped to Russia included; 197,825 - 1 1/2 ton trucks, 210,000 - 2 1/2 ton trucks, 12,000 jeeps and automobiles, 52,000 motorcycles, 4,000 ordinance and fuel hauling vehicles, 8,000 trailers, and 2 million miscellaneous tires.
The Soviets produced an estimated 281,500 trucks during the War, and made use of many captured vehicles. The Allies sent just over 400,000 trucks, these higher quality Lend-Lease trucks greatly facilitated Soviets in mounting offensives at a faster pace, that eventually got them to Berlin. Without them they undoubtedly would have had to manufacture trucks instead of AFV's and other equipment, causing the War in the East to be prolonged. For example: In Koniev's initial offensive in April 1945 to take Berlin, 15,000 of the 18,000 trucks in his Motor Transport Regiments moving ammunition and food around and to the front were Lend-Lease trucks.
Lend-Lease Aircraft And Fuel
The Soviets produced an estimated 101,000 combat aircraft during the War, supplementing their airforce with an estimated 15,000 following list of Lend-Lease aircraft:
Single-Engine Fighters Shipped Lost In Transit Arrived
P-39/P-400 Aircobra 4,719 Unknown 3,200 est.
P-40F Kittyhawk 4,017 Unknown 2,975 est.
P-47C Thunderbolt 195 0 195
P-63 King Cobra 2,456 67 2,389
British Hurricane 2,952 Unknown 2,250 est.
British Spitfire 1,331 Unknown 1,000 est.
Twin-Engine Aircraft
A-20 Havoc (Various Versions) 2,908 Unknown 2,600 est.
B-25 Mitchell 862 Unknown 750 est.
British H-P Hampden 23 0 23
British A-W 41 Albemarle 14 0 14
C-47 Dakota Transports 8 0 8
In addition to these aircraft shipments, the Soviets received some training when
the planes arrived, usually when pilots delivered them. All of the arrived
numbers are an educated guess, due to incomplete bookkeeping,
shipping losses and contradictory sources.
As mentioned earlier the Allies shipped a total of 476,000 tons of 100 octane aviation fuel that was also one of the more important items received. Production of this fuel was necessary to considerably enhance aircraft performance. It required sophisticated refining equipment and advanced techniques of production that the Soviets were short of.
Lend-Lease Military Equipment Misc.
5.5 Million Combat boots
23 million yards of army cloth for uniforms, etc.
Misc. rucksacks, bedding, blankets, tents and cots
Misc. saddles, harnesses and 93,000 tons of jute.
And the most valuable of item of all: gold braid to decorate their Soviet uniforms
Lend-Lease Communications, Rail and Naval Equipment
Over 2 million feet of waterproof telephone wire sent. This was a very important commodity that requires precise quality control standards. The Russian-made wire on the other hand, was substandard and had a reputation for always having a leak or short in it somewhere. The Lend-Lease cable was considerably more reliable. Since the Russians preferred using wire communications over wireless radios (so the Germans could not listen in on them) it was considered one of the more valuable items.
56,500 field telephones and 245,000 wireless radios for field and vehicle use.
1,000 locomotives and 250,000 tons of steel rails.
Miscellaneous Rail switching and signaling equipment.
520 Ships, tugs, barges and miscellaneous vessels that included 4 older Capital Ships, 33 Subchasers, 22 Minesweepers and 12 Gunboats.
1,111 - 20mm naval AA guns as well as several hundred torpedoes.
Lend-Lease Misc. Raw Materials, Tooling, Construction And Mfg. Equipment
1.2 million tons of steel in the form of slabs, sheets, tubing and bars (the Allies shipped them enough to make approximately 40,000 medium tanks, like the T-34).
Misc. Raw metals including 217,000 tons copper, 134,000 tons aluminum, 48,000 tons lead, 42,000 tons zinc, 29,000 tons tin, and 6,500 tons nickel.
Misc. chemicals, lubricants, paint, antifreeze, propane, acetylene, oxygen and 103,000 tons of rubber.
20,000 machine-tools including mills, lathes, grinders, drill bits, industrial diamonds, welding equipment a

<@Nolio> Ilu was the man back in the day,he even made monkeywrench and arganon look good for half a round =p
<@iluvatar> it is my grandest achievement
<@Nolio> *half a round  =p
<@iluvatar> still
* Final_Doom is now known as Thanks_Iluvatar