1 (edited by Justinian I 18-Mar-2008 05:12:31)

Topic: Ban Universal Suffrage in America

The Athenian and French Revolutions were two clear illustrations for why universal suffrage is a bad idea for a state with a large base of uneducated masses. They tend to think uncritically, and vote for demagogues that topple on the freedom of others.

The United States is entering a grave situation where the mass of people are uneducated and unwashed barbarians, thanks to the neglect of teaching independent thinking in the mass of American public schools. Only 27% of the US population has a four year college degree (which is pathetic considering how easy it is to acquire one). Moreover, nearly 40% of US individuals over the age of 25 earn an income that is less than $20,000. Though the number of retirees and disabled persons may inflate this number, the figure still paints a haunting figure of the US population, that a significant percentage of Americans are poor, uneducated and large enough to be critical to our elections.

Our education statistics also reinforce this haunting picture. The US ranks well below most post industrial societies in standardized test scores, and just by attending an average university class you will identify deep stupidity. Furthermore, just by talking to the average American you will find a prevailing pattern in world views that is not conducive for a responsible voter. They have a fatalistic and paternalistic mindset. As a member of the upper middle class, I was raised with an individualistic and self-reliant mindset that said I could create a favorable outcome for myself with enough planning, determination, and hard work. Education, critical thinking, and making your own way were the values I was raised with, and I had an abundance of family members to prove it so. By contrast, a common pattern for Americans of the growing "poor and uneducated" variety have paternalistic and fatalistic mindsets. They see themselves as victims of a divine power or the system (referring to white people, rich people, or some other label for evil people). And rather than assume control for their lives, they want to relinquish this control to a paternalistic figure such as God and/or the government. They are so deluded they consider government morally superior to a company, and as an institution that can guarantee their welfare. They believe this even in the sea of opportunities for self-advancement and examples of people born in situations just like them who successfully crafted their own future.

I can not fully explain the reasons why these people can not take responsibility for themselves, but I suspect it is due in part to an observational lacking in rational development. They seem limited in the capacity to draw conclusions from experience, grasp abstract concepts, see contingent events from a following event (resulting in poor organizational and planning skills), and effectively identify the means to reach their desired outcomes. These effects are easily observed in this part of the American population, and knowing this it is easy to understand why they are so fatalistic and seek a paternalistic figure. And a lacking in rational development can be BLAMED ON THE SCHOOLS! I BLAME OUR CRAP PUBLIC EDUCATION FOR THE POOR RATIONAL DEVELOPMENT IN A SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF THE AMERICAN POPULATION!!!

This disturbing situation means that universal suffrage is a threat to American society, because history could repeat itself. A revolution may spark that leads to the election of a demagogue(s) and result in a tyrannical society. We just need to look at Obama to realize this as a plausible future. Obama has shaken things up by mobilizing much of this population due to his remarks against the "baddies" and for his promises to provide new and expanded social services at the expense of these "baddies."

In an attempt to prevent this dangerous outcome, I think it is important for America to limit suffrage to people with property, an education, and a certain income (say $40,000). In addition, we need to focus on improving education and living standards for these people so they are pacified and less of a threat to our civilization.

Re: Ban Universal Suffrage in America

America already has systems in place to prevent mobocracy I thought. Besides when was the last time someone without any of the criteria you outline ever been elected to Congress or the Senate?

Re: Ban Universal Suffrage in America

> tavius wrote:

> America already has systems in place to prevent mobocracy I thought. Besides when was the last time someone without any of the criteria you outline ever been elected to Congress or the Senate?

Our laws defend minority rights, yes, but minority rights can be toppled by changing the law. Our constitution is not absolute, it can be changed or thrown out even. And what criteria are you referring to?

Re: Ban Universal Suffrage in America

Iq test would be better, it would ensure no republican is ever elected big_smile

Re: Ban Universal Suffrage in America

money for an education? money isnt going to fix our schools. skoe you have no idea what the schools are actualy like here. we have all the best technology for teachers plus we have about 400 computers for a 1400 student middle school.

its the material that is taught in these schools that needs to be fixed.

i would like to point out america is the richest country by GDP. i see that your definition of an education is to teach all children that socialism is the right way and capitalism is wrong and we must all care for the poor. that is why france is in the condition it is today. The only reason europe has any money is because america comes to defend you everytime you are attacked.

Re: Ban Universal Suffrage in America

@RR

HAHA!!!!

The french are just lazy. I would like to point out countries where social democracy has worked. Island, Norway, Sweden,Denmark and Finland. All those countries are considered to have the highest standard of living in the world. The best healthcare, excelent education, uncorrupt governments, least child deaths etc. this is where socialism works.

"The only reason europe has any money is because america comes to defend you everytime you are attacked."

lol

This just shows how ignorant most americans are. What would have happend to the american revoltution If France hadn't come to help.

@IA

I agree that the american public education system is bullshit. I went to an american public school from forms 3-6. I got lucky with that school. It was probably the best publicschool in New Haven if not Connecticut. Our class or the paralell class constantly won city and stae sciencefairs. Our test scores were one of the best in the state. our scores were like 25%-30% higher than the average.

The main problem that I see with the american education system is that the subjects aren't very clear and the grading system is weird.. In my country ninth formers are fifth in the world. We have a clear grading system. 3 big tests for each subject every semester and some not so important grades as well. I also don't like the american "science" class. There are many forms of science. In my school there are 4 science subjects: Biology, Geography, Chemistry and physics.

ok there are some other things I would like to write about but i'm tired.

"Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered
automatic weapons."-General Douglas MacArthur
"Cluster bombing from B-52s are very, very, accurate. The bombs are guaranteed
to always hit the ground."-USAF Ammo Troop

Re: Ban Universal Suffrage in America

"In my school there are 4 science subjects: Biology, Geography, Chemistry and physics."

Geography's science?

"They don't have the money for an education,"

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought America had free schooling up til the end of highschool.  If by the end of highschool you aren't educated enough to think independently you need serious help.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.

Re: Ban Universal Suffrage in America

@DPS

Yes It's natural science
under geography we study:  natural geography, geology, climatology, economic geography, political,racial,religeos,lingual etc. geography.

"Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered
automatic weapons."-General Douglas MacArthur
"Cluster bombing from B-52s are very, very, accurate. The bombs are guaranteed
to always hit the ground."-USAF Ammo Troop

Re: Ban Universal Suffrage in America

"I think it is important for America to limit suffrage to people with property, an education, and a certain income (say $40,000)"

So what are you saying, that the minority should rule the majority?  THis was how the electoral system used to work in Britain in the 1700s and 1800s, only land-owners and rich businessmen could vote, and they only voted in those who wanted to make life even better for these landowners and businessmen.  Everyone else were treated like 2nd class citizens.  Perhaps you want to narrow the voting to only the rich so the Republican party can stay in power?  Besides, if voting rights were taken away, there would probably be riots, so not smart.  People would rather have a voice and choose not to use it than not have one at all, it gives them a choice

"Oh Kent, anyone can make up statistics to support their point of view.  92% of people know that"

Homer Simpson

10 (edited by avogadro 18-Mar-2008 16:33:46)

Re: Ban Universal Suffrage in America

i fail to see how a 4 year college degree in the arts or journalism or any engineering is going to make them better voters. 

college isnt a magical place where idiots become intellectuals. intellectuals will be so whether or not they have a 4 year college degree and idiots will be idiots whether they have 4 year college degrees.

Re: Ban Universal Suffrage in America

It all starts with our primary education.  The teacher's union here has such a monopoly, that it makes it difficult for our primary education system to get any better.  I like Belgium's (or Netherlands') idea of placing the money with the child so that the parents can choose which school to go to.  Thus, turning our primary education system into an intellectually competitive one.

12 (edited by Justinian I 18-Mar-2008 17:47:02)

Re: Ban Universal Suffrage in America

PV,

Whoa! That's lame. Even my public school divided science between Biology, Chemistry, Geology, Physics, and Astronomy etc etc.

Vamp,

Yes they may feel upset for being excluded, but my proposed standard does not limit the voting population to a group as small as the yeoman. It limits it to something more like 50 or 60% of the US population. It's a small price to pay for stopping them from ever voting in a demagogue. Another thing to consider is that European states and the US didn't start allowing universal suffrage until education improved and was widely available. Their reservations before then were valid, and the educated class in America has reason to be concerned of the declining quality of education and increase in poorly educated and low income earners.

Avo,

A valid point, still acquiring a college degree requires some intellect. The standard also does not dismiss those who make $40,000 (which requires some intellect and hard work too) or big time investors or businessmen who never bothered to go to college.

Re: Ban Universal Suffrage in America

@Justinian

Thats still at least half of the US population who don't get a say in who runs the country, it is a good idea, but just because people earn less than a certain amount p.a. doesn't make them stupid.  They could be intellectuals in a first time job, just getting work experience.

"Oh Kent, anyone can make up statistics to support their point of view.  92% of people know that"

Homer Simpson

Re: Ban Universal Suffrage in America

> Vampman14 wrote:

> @Justinian

Thats still at least half of the US population who don't get a say in who runs the country, it is a good idea, but just because people earn less than a certain amount p.a. doesn't make them stupid.  They could be intellectuals in a first time job, just getting work experience.

True. But if you have a bachelor's degree, you can expect to make at least 40k starting in. If you make at least 40k without a bachelor's degree, then it is a strong indicator that you are smart anyway.

I'm not saying this system won't exclude idiots or will include just intellectuals, but I think it will do a very good job at ensuring an informed voter base while excluding the uneducated and uninformed voters from voting.

Hehe, "who are you to do x." Well, one only needs the power to implement something. However, I am not implementing anything, I do not have the power to. Still, I think it's a good idea in terms of overall utility to American society.

Re: Ban Universal Suffrage in America

Fair enough.  If they are allowed a vote once they get into a 40k+ p.a. income then that sounds fair, I thought you meant people in a <40k p.a. income couldn't get the vote, period.

"Oh Kent, anyone can make up statistics to support their point of view.  92% of people know that"

Homer Simpson

Re: Ban Universal Suffrage in America

> avogadro wrote:

> i fail to see how a 4 year college degree in the arts or journalism or any engineering is going to make them better voters. 

college isnt a magical place where idiots become intellectuals. intellectuals will be so whether or not they have a 4 year college degree and idiots will be idiots whether they have 4 year college degrees.



You are exactly right. The individual provides the canvas, the educational system the paint, and the students and educators work cooperatively in the creation of the final product. Without a "good" (i.e. "willing") canvas to paint, the product never becomes a masterpiece. A Rembrandt or Monet would only look marginal painted upon a piece of toilet paper. The student must possess a willing foundation in all facets of the educational system; ignorance and apathy can void any post-secondary education of its significance.

Wario