Topic: Question for Liberals: Is Obama at fault for the economy yet?

I ask cause Bush got handed an internet bubble and 9-11 and recovered out of it... yeah the housing bubble hit and hurt but everyone knows that is from a law Clinton passed.

So when is this economy O'bumbler's?

You were all quick to blame Bush Jr in 2002 and Bush Sr in 1992 was ousted over the economy. When does O'bummer get blamed?

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Question for Liberals: Is Obama at fault for the economy yet?

The issue isn't whether one politician is better or worse than another.  I think both Bush and Obama mean well.  The problem is "systemic malfeasance".

3 (edited by Xeno 16-Oct-2013 02:08:11)

Re: Question for Liberals: Is Obama at fault for the economy yet?

Maybe this will shed some light on the issue:

"We've streamlined, algorithmatized, instrumented and quarterly-profited our way to the systemic malfeasance we're now experiencing, and it will take just as rigorous an approach in the opposite direction to undo the damage."

http://www.jonkolko.com/writingHeartOfDarkness.php

Re: Question for Liberals: Is Obama at fault for the economy yet?

Please feel free to ignore the Xeno comments, he just wants attention.


Plase answer ye liberals

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

5 (edited by Xeno 16-Oct-2013 04:01:51)

Re: Question for Liberals: Is Obama at fault for the economy yet?

Hey, Enstein, I'm thinking about nominating you as leader of the IC Player's Revolution.  Would you accept?  We'd have an election campaign where candidates could present their platforms, debates, etc..

Interested?

Re: Question for Liberals: Is Obama at fault for the economy yet?

Not a chance, now delete your posts and go away!

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Question for Liberals: Is Obama at fault for the economy yet?

[closed - trolling]

fool for f-mod

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

8 (edited by Xeno 17-Oct-2013 18:48:13)

Re: Question for Liberals: Is Obama at fault for the economy yet?

Einstein wrote:

Please feel free to ignore the Xeno comments, he just wants attention.


Plase answer ye liberals

You know, Einstein, you're actually partially right here.  I do want attention.  But that isn't all I want.

I don't 'just' want attention.  I want other people's attention for a specific purpose - so I can share with them truths that I have perceived, implications of such truths, and my ideas for solutions to problems that are implied by such truths.  It is my hope that by doing this a process occurs by which others might follow my example do likewise: share their own perceived truths with others, share their perceived implications of such truths, and share their ideas for solutions to problems implied by such truths.   It is a process of sharing whereby once a critical mass of such occurs, intellectual paradigm shifts occur among diverse individuals, whereupon the overall, universal intellectual paradigm of humanity begins to shift as well, hopefully to an intellectual paradigm that should then provide for a chance - just a chance - that our species and all species on the planet will survive the next 200 years.

Examples of sharing perceived truths:

One-third of the human population of the planet is starving.  We humans are causing Earth's 6th mass-extinction event.  Steven Hawkings thinks we've got about a 200 year-window for us to colonize space.  You've heard such truths before, Einstein.

Example of sharing perceived implications of such perceived truths:

Currently I think the reason why 1/3 of the population of the planet is starving and that there is a mass-extinction event going on is because our current socioeconomic paradigm incentivizes us as a civilization to have such effects.

Example of sharing an idea for solution to problem implied by perceived truths:

I think that we can solve the problems implied by truths we perceive by people sharing their ideas for solutions to such.  If enough people share their perceived implications of such truths and if enough people share proposed solutions to such problems implied, enough people may experience intellectual paradigm shifts which in time will coalesce into a new socioeconomic paradigm that incentivizes us as a civilization to increase the chance our species' and other species' survive rather than decrease such chances.

In essence, Einstein, I am demonstrating my perceived solution to the problems implied by the truths I perceive in the hope that others would follow my example and that together we would help save our species and other species from extinction.

Such is actually a very simple process: individuals sharing truths, their perceived implications of truths, and their ideas for possible solutions to such truths.

I want attention so as to do my part in this process, so as to provide a chance that our species and other species on the planet will survive the next 200 years.

So, Einstein, what is one of your proposed solutions to problems implied by truths that you've perceived, say regarding the economy?

What is your idea for a solution to problems implied by your perceived truths regarding the economy?  Would you kindly share it with us?

Re: Question for Liberals: Is Obama at fault for the economy yet?

Your posing the question to liberals so the answer will always be "No".  He will get credit from the liberals for his compassion.  As Presidents go, he has removed the burden of working for millions of people and now provides food stamps and welfare for those who no longer want to be enslaved by "the man" into laboring for a paycheck.  Not enough people to fleece to pay for all the dependence?  No problem, every few months we will vote ourselves a new higher credit limit (<-- maybe this is a topic for another post but what is the point of a credit limit if the limit just moves every time more is required?).

Einstein, I believe you are in error when your assigning him 'fault'.  You are looking at the free market and capitalism which is suffering hard under Obama.  It was never his (or any liberals) intention to bolster that type of economy.  His intention wasn't to better our current economy, his intention was to start the transformation to a more European style economy.  Of that - he has been tremendously successful.

10 (edited by Key 18-Oct-2013 23:07:35)

Re: Question for Liberals: Is Obama at fault for the economy yet?

Didn't Bill Clinton have a treasury with surplus cash on hand, during office? The same treasury which was raided by George Bush Jr, in order to fund several wars overseas?

As for the question.  No.  Laws were passed, the republicans were mad, and they decided to hold the country, and the american economy hostage.   They figured, "well we don't like that particular law, so the government and the nation will do what we want, or everyone pays the price."  You know i'm not a lemmings, but the entire american economy was almost forced over the cliff by the Tea Party, and to take the rest of us down with them.  The republican party attempted to put the Spin that the democrats, and Obama in general, were unwilling to talk to them about the situation.

If anyone is to be blamed it's the republican party thinking they could control the Tea party.

"It is not the policy of this Office (pick any president since 1940's) to be dictated to by terrorists or extortionists, whether they call themselves revolutionaries or otherwise."

The Tea Party attempted to extort the Democratic Party and president Obama.  At best that was a criminal act.  Since my 401k took a hit due to the inability of the Tea party to see reason, I can bring criminal charges against Congress. smile

Actually any of you can bring up a Class Action suit vs. The Government of the United States of America.  Not that those fools in the Supreme Court could take their head out of their ass long enough to throw it out....

=^o.o^= When I'm cute I can be cute.  And when I'm mean, I can be very very mean.  I'm a cat.  Expect me to be fickle.

11 (edited by Xeno 19-Oct-2013 01:51:29)

Re: Question for Liberals: Is Obama at fault for the economy yet?

key wrote:

Actually any of you can bring up a Class Action suit vs. The Government of the United States of America.  Not that those fools in the Supreme Court could take their head out of their ass long enough to throw it out....

People all over the world are facing personal crises because of erroneous ways of thinking.  Power itself is the problem.  Decentralization of political authority to regional, municipal, local, community, neighborhood, and even individual levels is needed. 

We can't afford to have people in power whose prime objective is to serve their own interests.  This is morally unacceptable.  We need individuals and the smallest communities themselves to wield power over their own interests, livelihoods, etc., whereby individuals and communities are empowered to be independently self-sufficient by their interactivity rather than interdependent.  Individuals and communities, if left to pursue their own self-interests, will act according to natural altruistic values that are inherent to our human nature, and such a model for society will prevent the sort of systemic malfeasance that has occurred from ever occurring again in the future.

To accomplish this, due compensation should be provided to everyone for the subversion of democracy and the subversion of economic opportunity and freedom that we have all experienced.  This should be the focus of the bail-outs (a.k.a. quantative easing, hyperinflation, etc.): the money should be allotted to everyone on Earth in portions that cover each and every person's basic needs for the duration it takes them to adjust to the new global economic paradigm that's approaching.

Re: Question for Liberals: Is Obama at fault for the economy yet?

I still think this is an amazing story. The programming done to americans since their birth is so strong that all they see is money and numbers and numbers and money. Well not all, but people who think like Flint, and unfortunately it's still a large  number. The message that passes on about self-made billionaires and successful companies and stock market grandeur is just so implicit that they can't see beyond that. They just want to be like that, and it doesn't matter how many others they ignore and run over in a desperate bid to live their own american dream.

It comes without surprise that they'd rather beat up other americans who earn minimum wage working 2 or 3 jobs than wondering why exactly some large companies turn up profits of hundreds of millions or even billions of dollars every semester. I mean, I don't care about your sad stories of hunger and misery, I'm too infatuated with all the glitter from the top money makers.

And then we have to hear them talking all about how the rich can't pay for everything, even if the rich hold more % of wealth right now than in any other period of history. You see, there is absolutely no reason for so few people to hold so much capital, but they do it because they can.

This is what Obama faces, and it's what any other president would face. I personally wouldn't blame Romney more than I blame Obama presently, because their hands are tied. They don't hold enough power anymore to change the state of affairs, simply because Forbes top 500 doesn't give a cap about what they say. They have the money so they just do whatever they want. And if they don't like what the Government does, they just sponsor a few schmucks to throw in a wrench for them, a la Ted Cruz (who got $750.000 for his campaign fund) and other Tea Party members who really stand for nothing but the Koch brothers and their like.

When's that debt ceiling raising again?

13 (edited by Xeno 19-Oct-2013 02:41:49)

Re: Question for Liberals: Is Obama at fault for the economy yet?

Genesis wrote:

When's that debt ceiling raising again?

Next QE measure?  What is it now QE10?

Nice post above, Genesis.  Totally agree it is absurd what's happened.  And we're just beginning to learn how absurd it is.

About Americans having been programmed -  it's not just Americans.  It's people everywhere.

People are awakening from the mass hypnotism in its various forms every day, though.  I remember when I used to watch cable TV.  I used to think it was essential.  Now, though, I can watch what I want when I want.  I can search to things I am interested in watching instead of being forced to watch whatever is 'programmed' at a particular time.

I used to work a 9 to 5 job that I hated, and after dinner I had no energy to do anything but watch sitcoms, sleep, wake and repeat. 

Then youtube came along and suddenly there was all this choice about what to watch.  And I could watch it whenever I wanted to. 

Then I kept finding myself losing my jobs for various reasons, mostly stemming from the fact that I always tended to despise the people I was working for and it didn't take long for it to show.

So, I had more time to watch films and read articles / books that I could CHOOSE, rather than what was forced on me.

Then, there was the opportunity to discuss what I had learned and SHARE what I thought about things.  This was also slowly awakening me.

That is when I began to think either people around me was crazy or I was.  Now, though, having come through it, I know the answer, and it isn't me who is crazy, AND it isn't them either - it is the system which is insane, but they don't know it yet.

So what to do?  Now that I know its the system that is insane, what should I do about it?  Inevitably, people's paradigm shifts will come, just as it did for me, but in the meanwhile, billions of people continue to suffer miserably simply because people like Einstein REFUSE to realize they are wrong; refuse to realize that we are all wrong; that we still are wrong, and, therefore, that we have to continuously realize this and try to change accordingly.

Part of the torment involved in the paradigm shift is despising oneself for not only having been wrong but continuing to be wrong and not changing as much as one feels they could.

Yes, in some ways the reason I can't change is because of external pressures (like the cost of changing, etc.), but there are some ways I could change but don't change because it would mean breaking a habit or even an addiction: escapism, for instance - I can only handle the truth in small doses, it seems, else it drives me back to escapist diversions: sports, comedy shows, etc..

And then there's the inaction that makes me despise myself as well. I have long struggled with fear of speaking out about these issues, fear of being labeled an extremist, but also hating myself for not speaking out about such; hating myself for not sharing what I have learned; hating myself because I know I am self-censoring my expression due to the fear of the state and the establishment that has been drilled into me by the system. 

And then there is also the fear I have to get involved in a movement that could affect real change.  Ideas for actions for real change are dangerous.

Allowing for a free flow of information online for people to peruse is helpful and carries with it the potential for real change, but only if it is organized in a way that people can access easily, effectively, and for FREE.

This is not happening in my opinion, and meanwhile billions continue to suffer as a result.

This is what has brought me to shoptivism - a feasible, legal, non-violent method that could affect the necessary change FAST.

If consumption of a product of a company suddenly just stopped because 'organized consumerism' (much like organized labor) decided to strike against that company - not merely boycott it - that company's shares would fall.  And if the company's shares fell far enough, the organized consumers (and maybe the employees) could buy the company at a discount, change the way it operates so that it suits THEIR interests rather than majority shareholders who (like Stefan) don't really give a @#$# about the product they produce or how it is produced or the effects of the product on the world aside from the money they get from product sales.

I believe organized consumerism on local levels can accomplish the sorts of changes that THEY want in THEIR local communities.  I haven't worked out how to get organized consumerism thriving in my local community yet, but I am working on it.  I believe it starts with community awareness of and willingness to participate in peaceful, legal, shoptivism.

Re: Question for Liberals: Is Obama at fault for the economy yet?

I'm not a liberal (in US terms) but here is my -short- answer anyway:
Obama didn't cause the crisis single handed but he made it far worse and prolonged it.

Re: Question for Liberals: Is Obama at fault for the economy yet?

Little Paul wrote:

I'm not a liberal (in US terms) but here is my -short- answer anyway:
Obama didn't cause the crisis single handed but he made it far worse and prolonged it.

The alternative is a collapse of the financial system, which we are not prepared for.

16 (edited by Little Paul 19-Oct-2013 16:41:30)

Re: Question for Liberals: Is Obama at fault for the economy yet?

Collapse means punishing greedy risky or unprofitable bank systems and rewarding good solid ones. There was a collapse in the 30'...Humanity ceased to exist clearly.

We are not prepared to live with artificially propped up corrupt non efficient systems on the other hand. Why save the people who screwed it up with our money? Its stupid and its stealing. If you suck at your job you get sacked, why save them?

17 (edited by The Yell 19-Oct-2013 17:59:23)

Re: Question for Liberals: Is Obama at fault for the economy yet?

I agree with Little Paul.  During the Cold War we were prepared to see NY and Washington nuked and still fight on.  Now I'm supposed to believe we can't eat, we'll starve, without AIG or Citibank?  It's not like the human resources vanish when a bank goes under.  All those people still know how to bank.  They just need an employer. 

US needs a banking industry.

We don't need these banks.

for $900 billion we could have started over with fresh banks eager to prove they weren't as stupid greedy as the last bunch.

lemme say in that regard Obama is just continuing Bush's failed recovery policy, but Obama has also added a war on carbon and oil and coal and natural gas and jacked up the price of doing financial business and now he's screwing with healthcare.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

18 (edited by Xeno 19-Oct-2013 22:54:58)

Re: Question for Liberals: Is Obama at fault for the economy yet?

What I mean is we're not prepared for the changes that may occur after the collapse, not that it isn't bad for the collapse to occur.

How are we going to cope with what comes after?  We have to figure this out before it occurs.

My idea is that local communities based on self-interest AND altruism mutually-facilitate each other's self sufficiency.

This is completely different from what it is like now, where communities are stuck in an interdependency paradigm orchestrated by systems designed in the self-interests of designers, when such systems necessarily must serve both the self-interests and interests of altruism of the users - a completely different paradigm.

Such a paradigm involves sharing the specific knowledge, technology, and resources which facilitates adjacent individuals and communities' economic self-sufficiency, the excess of resources produced by each individual or community being allocated to altruistic support of adjacent individuals and communities towards their aim of also becoming self-sufficient rather than dependent.

Operating in such a paradigm produces no debt.

19 (edited by Xeno 19-Oct-2013 23:18:45)

Re: Question for Liberals: Is Obama at fault for the economy yet?

But that is just my idea.  It's just one idea of billions of people's ideas left to be forgotten.  In my particular case, it is because I have no choice but to post such ideas here on some text-based video-game website, where I know they will never reach the people who might actually benefit from them.  I have no choice because I am terrified by the present circumstances in the world and fear what might happen if my ideas were to reach a large audience.

What is REALLY necessary is a social network that facilitates the ease and effectiveness of people sharing ideas; where ideas are searchable by region, by problem type, etc., all in a secure, open, abuse-proof, and refinement process, whereby peoples' ideas get exposure to the audiences that are most in need or want of them, according to how well they accepted through a fool-proof democratic process of up-voting the good ideas and down-voting the bad ones.

This needs to be set up before the collapse so individuals and communities can use it to support each other.

It's certainly not facebook or google+ or even reddit - these are all insufficient.  First, none of them are geared to provide the sort of ease of access to knowledge, ideas, and SOLUTIONS that people need and want.  None of them are geared to allow the user to easily share with those who want or need such truths, implications of truths, and ideas for solutions implied by shared truths.

In order to adjust to the post-collapse circumstances that we will face, whatever they might be, we need such a social network.

20 (edited by Xeno 21-Oct-2013 16:34:39)

Re: Question for Liberals: Is Obama at fault for the economy yet?

And this social network should be decentralized so that it in and of itself does not become a power center and therefore corruptible.

Each individual should have the opportunity to own and operate their own network under their own domain, and also have the opportunity to have their network interconnected with and available to other individuals' networks on a global scale, each also operating under its own domain.

Re: Question for Liberals: Is Obama at fault for the economy yet?

I say we build a mother ship with lots of nukes and put it in orbit

winner gets to the mothership first

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Question for Liberals: Is Obama at fault for the economy yet?

I think I've got enough space on my computer to store my own texts and links, thanks.

Re: Question for Liberals: Is Obama at fault for the economy yet?

Seriously, what is so hard about designing the kind of social network that people want and need?

24 (edited by The Yell 20-Oct-2013 17:33:22)

Re: Question for Liberals: Is Obama at fault for the economy yet?

what people want and what they need and what you can plan are very different things

so, they get Batman

actually that's a profound answer.  you got the reference because Batman is popular. Nobody really needs Batman but people want to see Batman. If you were planning the world you wouldn't plan for billions of dollars going to Warner Brothers for Batman, because nobody needs to hear about Batman.  But they want Batman.  I begin to think if Batman didn't exist somebody would have to invent him.  Maybe we do need him.  Maybe our plans can't work til we figure that out.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Question for Liberals: Is Obama at fault for the economy yet?

So what you're saying is... Batman is the hero the world deserves... but not the one it needs?

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