1 (edited by Xeno 09-Oct-2013 18:25:18)

Topic: Either the System is Insane or I am.

I have long contemplated based on my personal experiences and learning the notion that either the system is insane or I am.

Yes, I know, you might think it could be the case that both the world and I are insane, or, rather, that neither the world nor I am insane.

But as for myself, I know at the very core, the very fiber of my being, that I am 100% sure it must be either that I am insane or that the system is insane.

For the purposes of this discussion, for the time being, I'd like to analyze various topics and examples that indicate this.

And, as a little bonus to my would be nemeses here at IC politics forum, here's your chance for an epic, heroic, permanent win:


>>If I become convinced by our our honest discussion, facts, analysis, and arguments that it is I rather than the world that is insane, I will commit myself to a psycho ward.<<

For the first example of the insanity of the system, I present the tablet PC as a symbol of the superfluous product that people nevertheless buy, and the absurdity of the system with regards to recycling old electronics.

It completely boggles my mind and makes me suspect that I am insane when I consider that the tablet PC product (be it by Apple or Microsoft or any other company) has been successful.

Everyone knows it is not as powerful nor as functional as a decent laptop.  The tablet isn't designed to replace them, but rather marketed as complimentary to laptops.  In other words, people are getting laptops (some of which are just as small as tablets) AND tablets because they're being told their complimentary or somehow useful.  But in actuality, they are completely superfluous.  And yet in spite of their being completely superfluous, people keep buying them, along with a laptop, AND a desktop, AND a smart TV, which in and of itself with all of the accessories available for them could function as a computer.  And don't forget your phone, which you must replace with whatever model is the next trendiest on the market every few months or you're not cool, professional or successful enough.  How many computers can the system shove down people's throats?  How many gizmos can the system convince people 'NEED'.  Why doesn't any company out there in our so called free market system provide the ONE gizmo that people want?  Seriously, its got to be either me or the system that's insane here.

I mean consider the resale value of these maybe 6 month old electronics.  It's less than what you have to pay in environmental fees / your time to just dump / recycled them.  And where do you recycle them?  The store where you bought them!

I mean is it normal and rational for people to buy something and then pay the store more money six months later just to GIVE it back to them and buy something else?

If so, clearly, I must be insane.

It's got to be the system. I mean, isn't it rational to assume you should get money to for something, as in when you recycle things?  And yet, you don't.  The system charges you money to give it stuff that you have paid for.

I mean, think about it.  It's more than just expecting something for nothing.  The system expects YOU to pay to GIVE it something.

And am I insane to think that others don't seem to think there's anything wasteful or wrong with this?

People are replacing their electronics every few months: IPAD1 to IPAD2 to IPAD3, to whatever the next best and brightest brand name product out there is, all along paying the stores where they bought their old product to recycle it.  This is insane. It isn't me.  Prove otherwise, and I'll get myself committed.

Seriously.

Re: Either the System is Insane or I am.

Xeno wrote:

This is insane. It isn't me.  Prove otherwise, and I'll get myself committed.

Seriously.

Just want to get this on the record to prevent possible edit issues in the future.

Now I'll have to look at this later.  smile

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Either the System is Insane or I am.

Moore's law

<KT|Away> I am the Trump of IC

Re: Either the System is Insane or I am.

I have a $350ish tablet (Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1 wifi version) and a pair of ASUS Republic of Gaming laptops ($1800 each after insurance and warranty package).

The laptops are huge (big gaming screens). Lugging them around is a chore.

The tablet however is able to be tucked under an arm or under some papers with ease.

As I drive I use the tablet for a portable invoice as I walk into a shipper (my phone does the same but the screen is far smaller). I also use it for portable book reading (easier to lug it around), gaming while I wait for whatever, and as a portable electronic version of a paper notebook.

This is besides web viewing, the calculators, and language programs I have. Additionally it is a far more easy to use map platform as I drive with a clear view of all surrounding streets (phone lacks) which can be quickly consulted (compared to laptops).


Environmentalist minded persons like the low power requirements of a tablet versus a pc as well.


Simply put a tablet is a weight based convienance, where it is far lighter and smaller than a pc (even a thin book laptop). It also is far more capable of handling a spilled drink or being dropped (mine has proven to be very rugged!).




So Xeno, the tablet has a valid function in my life, so which clinic should we send the flowers and get well cards?

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Either the System is Insane or I am.

Flint is right....and that's even ignoring Moore!

<KT|Away> I am the Trump of IC

Re: Either the System is Insane or I am.

As for the upgrading thing... Upgrades can be very good if they actually provide good enough value. Some people however have a desire to 'appear popular' and so always have the best.

However for me an upgrade on laptops would need to be significant at this moment for me to consider it (I have two of the best) but my tablet is getting a bit aged in some regards (not enough memory if I went all out, some applications could be better, and an instant app that would send 20 gigajoules of energy sparking through Undeath on command would be nice as well).

For some people it is also a matter of 'hand me downs' where they have enough for another tablet, so they get one and pass the lesser one to their children.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Either the System is Insane or I am.

Einstein wrote:

and an instant app that would send 20 gigajoules of energy sparking through Undeath on command


We need to get an app developer on this immediately!

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

8 (edited by Xeno 10-Oct-2013 02:56:39)

Re: Either the System is Insane or I am.

Okay, Einstein, if your tablet is so dandy, you must be able to do everything with it that you can do with your laptop, is that right?

And yet, you have both a laptop and a tablet.  Why would you need both if your tablet can do everything your laptop can do.

Or is it the case that just like electronics salespeople you are making your tablet seem more dandy than it really is and in fact it can't do everything that your laptop does.

And if so, isn't it true, therefore, that either your tablet is insufficient and you might as well only have a laptop?  Which is it?

Your tablet is insufficient or your laptop is superfluous.  Call me crazy, but aren't these the only two options available by your own admission?

And if either is the case, isn't it insane, therefore, that anyone has either a superfluous laptop or insufficient tablet?

Re: Either the System is Insane or I am.

Different tools for different jobs. A chisel can be used with a hammer to break rock. So can a jackhammer. You would not use a jackhammer on precise art nor a chisel for road construction, yet they both break rocks.

My tablet is acceptable and proper for a number of environments where a laptop would not be. and when in the truck i can play the highest end of games on my laptop(s).

I am in a bathroom right now and my tablet would be fine here, but a laptop would be unweidly.

Btw my laptops are Windows based and my phone and tablet android based.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Either the System is Insane or I am.

Einstein wrote:

Different tools for different jobs. A chisel can be used with a hammer to break rock. So can a jackhammer. You would not use a jackhammer on precise art nor a chisel for road construction, yet they both break rocks.

So, I'm assuming, then, that you use the laptop as the hammer and the tablet as the chisel?  Is that why people go through them so quickly and always need the latest best and brightest models?

Einstein wrote:

My tablet is acceptable and proper for a number of environments where a laptop would not be.

Okay, so you are admitting your laptop is deficient.

Einstein wrote:

and when in the truck i can play the highest end of games on my laptop(s).

So you're saying your tablet isn't good enough to play the highest end games?  So your tablet is also deficient.

Einstein wrote:

I am in a bathroom right now and my tablet would be fine here, but a laptop would be unweidly.

So you're saying your laptop is too big, and your tablet is not powerful enough?  isn't it insane, then, that you have either of them?

Isn't it insane that the market produces two items that are both deficient, and at the same time, people buy them like mad?

Re: Either the System is Insane or I am.

I currently have to have a separate tv, fridge, oven, and toilet.  By your logic regarding tablets and laptops all of these products are deficient as they don't have the same capabilities and uses as the other.

<KT|Away> I am the Trump of IC

12 (edited by The Great Eye 10-Oct-2013 15:25:33)

Re: Either the System is Insane or I am.

If that was possible with current technology, it would be done.

Why do I say this?  Because there's no loss by doing exactly what you described, if possible.  Apple and Google top the tablet market.  Dell, HP, and other companies top the laptop market.  Notice the utter lack of overlap?  Well, Apple produces both... but their share of the computer industry is diminishing greatly.  If Dell were to come out with a tablet that replaced both deficient tablets and deficient laptops, as you describe them, Dell would utterly dominate both markets, become filthy stinkin' rich, and they'd win.  Dell wouldn't lose on the tablet side because they don't have a massive presence in the tablet market.  Moreover, even if they did, neither of their shares are dominant enough to where they would be willing to risk a competitor beating them to the market on exactly that.

In fact, for that reason, I have no doubt that what you're describing is in the works, but it's just a pragmatic question of research.  Remember, it took time to make a tablet.  It took time to make an affordable laptop.  Hell, Microsoft almost discounted the personal computer as impossible (the company quickly shifted gears, but they were mere months away from being utterly obsolete).

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

13 (edited by Xeno 10-Oct-2013 18:10:19)

Re: Either the System is Insane or I am.

Undeath wrote:

I currently have to have a separate tv, fridge, oven, and toilet.  By your logic regarding tablets and laptops all of these products are deficient as they don't have the same capabilities and uses as the other.

Not quite.

The items you mention each serve a specific different purpose.  The PC, TV (smart TVs), laptop, tablet, and smartphone are all essentially the same item: they are all essentially components of one's personal computer.

It is not in the interest of manufacturers or inventors to produce a single product which is sufficient for our purposes, but rather multiple products each of which is insufficient, requiring people to need (or at least think they need) more and more and more and more products, each designed to be deficient and its efficacy dependent on other more and more and more products.

If there were a single product which by its widespread use people could produce more of it themselves, as well as all of their other necessities of life, it wouldn't be in the interest of manufacturers to produce it or inventors to eve imagine it, for it would render the manufacturer and inventor redundant.

As a result, superfluousness, inefficiency, unsustainability, and inter-dependency by design (rather than mutual self-sufficiency) are the quintessential values of our current socioeconomic paradigm, not only in regards to the computer, but in virtually all aspects of society.

Pick one:

Transportation
Education
Finance
Politics
Agriculture

or name any other.

Superfluousness, inefficiency, unsustainability, and inter-dependency by design run rampant throughout every aspect of our lives.

14 (edited by Xeno 10-Oct-2013 17:07:44)

Re: Either the System is Insane or I am.

A story:  The Wizard and his Magical Pet Rock
---------------------------------------------------------

There was once a wizard who had a magic pet rock. 

The pet rock had the capability to produce anything that anyone wanted. All anyone would have to do is hold the rock in their hand and imagine whatever they wanted and such would be magically manifested.

This magic pet rock was the only one of its kind in existence in all the universes, which made the wizard a very powerful person indeed.

The wizard could do whatever he wanted, create any reality, including an entirely new universe if he so chose.

If you were the wizard, what would you do?

Would you have people jump and do silly tricks for for you in exchange for what they'd need or want?

Would you destroy all of the water in the universe so that everyone would have to come to you for the water they'd need to survive?

Or would you manifest more magical pet rocks just like it and them away to everyone so that everyone could be happy and have all their needs and wants fulfilled?

If you were the wizard with the magical pet rock, what would you do?

15 (edited by The Great Eye 10-Oct-2013 17:17:08)

Re: Either the System is Insane or I am.

Are you actually alleging that modern businesses have the capacity to build whatever they want, without technological inhibitions?  If you're not, then your analogy is utterly non-responsive and pointless.  If your argument hinges on that assumption, though, I'm pretty sure we can begin searching for a clinic.  smile

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Either the System is Insane or I am.

A rock pick is optimized for the task it is designed for.

A sledgehammer is designed for the task it was designed for.

A server farm made onto 1 tablet would be one stinking huge of a tablet, and a calculator is an outdated tool now replaced by aps on small smart phones and tablets.

Xeno a prius is decent for a couple, a minivan for a family of 6, and a semi truck is useful for moving bulk commodities.

One would not use a semi truck for taking the kids to soccer, nor would a prius be an efficient way to move cargo. yet they are all vehicles with combustion engines, seats, steering wheels, tires, etc.


So please have your family forward a good location to mail care packages to. i hope your recovery is quick

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Either the System is Insane or I am.

I feel like we should find clarification for what will be required for Xeno to declare himself insane.  If using a story about a magic rock is a legitimate argument, I'm afraid we're wasting our time.

<KT|Away> I am the Trump of IC

18 (edited by Xeno 10-Oct-2013 18:24:23)

Re: Either the System is Insane or I am.

The Great Eye wrote:

Are you actually alleging that modern businesses have the capacity to build whatever they want, without technological inhibitions?  If you're not, then your analogy is utterly non-responsive and pointless.  If your argument hinges on that assumption, though, I'm pretty sure we can begin searching for a clinic.  smile

No, I am not alleging that modern businesses have the capacity to build whatever they want without technological inhibitions, just as I do not think there is an evil wizard with a magical pet rock orchestrating the progress of technological advancement only in so far as it satisfies his sadistic tendencies in exchange.

Does the point of the story really escape you all?  Really, come now.

The point is, that the socioeconomic paradigm in which human society operates (and which it has always operated) is akin to a somewhat malevolent, mildly sadistic, petty, vain, egotistical, selfish wizard with one such magical pet rocks.  Far removed from having any inclination of imagining into existence magical pet rocks to give away and thereby negating his monopoly on power, his inclination is to release periodically objects of necessity or desire to people only in so far as it serves his interest of gaining more adoration from his worshipers or to satisfy his carnal, depraved, rather perverted, deviant, lustful, and by all indications, INSANE fascinations.

Re: Either the System is Insane or I am.

Then answer this:

The Great Eye wrote:

If that was possible with current technology, it would be done.

Why do I say this?  Because there's no loss by doing exactly what you described, if possible.  Apple and Google top the tablet market.  Dell, HP, and other companies top the laptop market.  Notice the utter lack of overlap?  Well, Apple produces both... but their share of the computer industry is diminishing greatly.  If Dell were to come out with a tablet that replaced both deficient tablets and deficient laptops, as you describe them, Dell would utterly dominate both markets, become filthy stinkin' rich, and they'd win.  Dell wouldn't lose on the tablet side because they don't have a massive presence in the tablet market.  Moreover, even if they did, neither of their shares are dominant enough to where they would be willing to risk a competitor beating them to the market on exactly that.

In fact, for that reason, I have no doubt that what you're describing is in the works, but it's just a pragmatic question of research.  Remember, it took time to make a tablet.  It took time to make an affordable laptop.  Hell, Microsoft almost discounted the personal computer as impossible (the company quickly shifted gears, but they were mere months away from being utterly obsolete).

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

20 (edited by Xeno 10-Oct-2013 19:37:21)

Re: Either the System is Insane or I am.

As an example of the moral bankruptcy inherent to the socioeconomic paradigm in which we operate, akin to a sadistic wizard with a magical pet rock as described above, let's revisit the production of the tablet (we could use any item but since we are discussing tablets, let's us that). 

The assumed purpose of the production of the tablet is to provide a want / need to the customer, people who buy and use tablets.

But is it really?

Instead of seeing the outcome of the production of the table from the consumer's viewpoint, let's look at the outcome of the production from the producer's viewpoint.

From the producer's viewpoint, the outcome of the production and mass sales of table PCs is far removed from what the customer experiences as the outcome.  From the producer's view, the outcome of its production is expansion of production of other items on bigger scale, all of which is conducted in a system of supply chains.  The outcome of the production of tablet PCs (or anything else for that matter) from the producer's point of view is simply growth, the expansion of the system of production.

What does this look like, this product called the expansion of the system of production?  Polluted streets, malnourished labor, 30% youth unemployment, 1/3 of the planet sustained at bare subsistence levels, mass extinction of species, wars, gross inequalities between rich and poor individuals and countries alike, slavery, concrete jungles, slums, contamination of water sources...The list goes on and on.

Instead of looking at the tablet PC as the outcome of production as one would from a consumer's point of view, flip it around and see the impact the production of the tablet PC (and everything else for that matter) as the product of  production.

A paradigm shift occurs at this point whereby it is no longer the product you purchase at the store or the need / want that is fulfilled by the purchased item, but rather the state of the WORLD which is seen as the product of our production.

And when one experiences this paradigm shift and starts to view the world as the product of our production rather than products as the product of our production; when one then takes a look at the world as the purpose served by our production the insanity of the system (not me) becomes completely and utterly obvious.

Re: Either the System is Insane or I am.

The Great Eye wrote:

Then answer this:

The Great Eye wrote:

If that was possible with current technology, it would be done.

Why do I say this?  Because there's no loss by doing exactly what you described, if possible.  Apple and Google top the tablet market.  Dell, HP, and other companies top the laptop market.  Notice the utter lack of overlap?  Well, Apple produces both... but their share of the computer industry is diminishing greatly.  If Dell were to come out with a tablet that replaced both deficient tablets and deficient laptops, as you describe them, Dell would utterly dominate both markets, become filthy stinkin' rich, and they'd win.  Dell wouldn't lose on the tablet side because they don't have a massive presence in the tablet market.  Moreover, even if they did, neither of their shares are dominant enough to where they would be willing to risk a competitor beating them to the market on exactly that.

In fact, for that reason, I have no doubt that what you're describing is in the works, but it's just a pragmatic question of research.  Remember, it took time to make a tablet.  It took time to make an affordable laptop.  Hell, Microsoft almost discounted the personal computer as impossible (the company quickly shifted gears, but they were mere months away from being utterly obsolete).

Zarf, its not about the tablet.  It's about the paradigm in which production occurs and how we define the product of our production.

See above post.

22 (edited by The Great Eye 10-Oct-2013 19:20:05)

Re: Either the System is Insane or I am.

1: Except that the tablet is a representation of that paradigm, in your words.  If the production of the tablet  can be shown to be not as you describe, it punctures a hole in the legitimacy of your stance.

2: You used this particular issue of the tablet as your argument that the world was insane.  This is a 100% backpedaling from the stance that the specific complaint you lodged in OP was a material issue.

3: I should add here, you're also distracting in the issue of discussion.  Your tablet discussion was an issue of final products.  Now you're getting into issues of production, which while possibly related, only relate insofar as both "defunct production" and "defunct products" have the same word "defunct."

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Either the System is Insane or I am.

"For the first example of the insanity of the system, I present the tablet PC as a symbol of the superfluous product that people nevertheless buy, and the absurdity of the system with regards to recycling old electronics."
...
..
.
For the first example of the insanity of the system, I present the tablet PC"
....
...
..
.
"I present the tablet PC"
....
...
..
....
.
...
.
"Zarf, its not about the tablet."

<KT|Away> I am the Trump of IC

24 (edited by The Great Eye 10-Oct-2013 19:31:56)

Re: Either the System is Insane or I am.

I should additionally note that, considering you are the one which made this discussion to where there are implications on the matter of whether or not you admit to being wrong, we cannot simply drop an issue such as this, particularly when it's you who brought it up.  The issue has larger implications, and we can't begin to honestly discuss issues unless parties are willing to admit when an issue they raise may be incorrect (since you've made yourself the judge of whether or not you are correct, the discussion requires you to admit when you're wrong before considering other areas.  Otherwise, honest discourse is impossible).

So again... are you admitting you were wrong on the technical production specifications of the tablet/laptop debate, cited in post 1?

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

25 (edited by Xeno 10-Oct-2013 19:49:05)

Re: Either the System is Insane or I am.

I'm using the success of the superfluous tablet PC as just an example of the insanity incarnate of the system whereby tablet PCs (along with everything else we do) produces strife, wars, extinction of species, etc..

It is not only by the production of superfluous gadgets, but by the very paradigm in which our civilization (every civilization past) operates which produces our destruction.

It isn't just the tablet which produces a broken world and threatens the survival of the human race but EVERYTHING about our civilization - the very paradigm in which civilization operates threatens to 'produce' our destruction, and THEREFORE, the very SYSTEM by which we operate, is insane, not me.