Topic: My Mafia changes explained

Ok so some do not understand some of the changes made.

1) Dice roll for ties
Tia showed the reverse of a tie I thought up before. My intent had been to reduce deaths for a win. Her intent was to kill all but a single townie.

Thinking it through logically if townies set up a special controlled suicide pact they could rig the game.

So I devised a system where outcomes are not guaranteed.


2) Day and Night Roles
Too often I heard some individuals say they can tell when so and so has a role cause they stay up late or get up early.

Thus with roles in both phases this becomes more difficult to predict.

3) Time change
Again there were some who were predictable due to time issues. This was to help change that

4) Events
An event is something broad based. In this case it was a roleblock of anything but kills. It was designed to help the Sk partially and a prepared town as well (though town never found him).

5) Cops 1st investigation gets told they were investigated by mod when mafia has serious investigation powers.

This was secretly done this round, as a counterbalance to a skilled mafia player with investigations. Imagine Nolio finding Doctor Watson and using his skills to keep Undeath from investigating mob... lol. I still need to think a good balance out here if ever I mod again and mafia is to get investigations.

6) Invincible roles and a story line based upon them
I tried to change the focus of the game to the dynamics of good versus evil than individual players and their actions.

By using plot characters in this manner I hoped to make the story dynamic and fluid.

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Re: My Mafia changes explained

Unfortunately, your changes made the game no longer Mafia. It became too confusing, and hard to follow. Mafia is made to create a strategy of trust, and guesswork. Your rules eliminated the trust between normal townies, thus overpowering the mob.

Modestus Experitus

Arby: A very strict mod, reminds me of a fat redneck who drives a truck around all day with a beer in one hand. I hated this guy at the start, however, I played a round in PW with him where he went as an anonymous player. Our fam got smashed up and everyone pretty much left. Arby stayed around and helped out the remaining family. At the end of the round he revealed himself.... My views on him have changed since. Your a good guy.....

3 (edited by Undeath 14-Mar-2013 21:00:58)

Re: My Mafia changes explained

I like the idea of innovative roles and changes, but most of yours weren't thought through well enough.  Or rather, they may have been thought through well, but the thought process wasn't conveyed well enough to the players. 

1) Dice role
I don't really have a problem with this concept, I just don't see the necessity for it.

2) Day and Night Roles
Same thing as previous, there is nothing wrong with there being roles in both phases, but the problem with being able to tell when someone has a role or not isn't won't be fixed by them getting on earlier or later to send in their role.  You will always get an idea of whether someone is making an effort to be on at specific times, IF that person makes the choice to alter their play time when they have a role.  Adding more roles, if anything, increases this factor.

3) Time change
All this did, at least for me personally, was make sure I wasn't around at all during the night phase.  Generally I just said to hell with it and went to bed before vote phase was over.  Time will never be perfect for all players though.

4) Events
I like this idea.  I'm not sure how much this one effected the game, but this is a concept that could be expanded on in the future.

5)  Cops 1st investigation gets told they were investigated by mod when mafia has serious investigation powers
"This was secretly done this round, as a counterbalance to a skilled mafia player with investigations. Imagine Nolio finding Doctor Watson and using his skills to keep Undeath from investigating mob... lol. I still need to think a good balance out here if ever I mod again and mafia is to get investigations."

This, in its entirety, is stupid.  To rephrase what your explanation is, "This was secretly done this round to negate skilled mafia players"  I fully disagree with this.

6) Invincible roles and a story line based upon them
This is a neat twist, HOWEVER, if both roles are going to be invincible, that needs to be conveyed.  If town had known that Moriarty's role would pass on, we would have played it like the last game when we left poley alive.


Looking back on it, the biggest issues seem to be:
a. you inherently think from a pro-town perspective, compromising the equal footing that the entire game is based around.
b. you had this grand scheme in your head that legit seems like it would be cool, but when it comes to writing it down the stories and explanations weren't on the same level.  When you have these complex interactions, the writing has to be at a higher level to convey what is going on.  When after almost every single story, you have to come back an hour later and explain what happened, there is a problem.

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Re: My Mafia changes explained

I'm all for adding new roles.

But in the game of Mafia, you introduce them gradually.  You can't easily add in a million new roles who all do different things.  It's too confusing, and people as it is struggle to gain knowledge of proceedings.  Not to mention balance is always what moderators think of before designing a game.  You don't want it heavily favoured one way or the other.  Rather you want the players to be able to make smart decisions and deductions to gain their advantage. 

Too many confusing roles loses this focus.

Re: My Mafia changes explained

Flint, you take things far too personally. That being said, I can see what you were trying to do with these change but if you had talked it through with any players or had a co-writer it could have been better executed. In relation to your six points I will attempt to address my view point on each.

Einstein wrote:

1) Dice roll for ties
Tia showed the reverse of a tie I thought up before. My intent had been to reduce deaths for a win. Her intent was to kill all but a single townie.

Thinking it through logically if townies set up a special controlled suicide pact they could rig the game.

So I devised a system where outcomes are not guaranteed.

As far as this goes, I do not like the dice roll. With your pro-town slant (inherent in most things you do) this dice roll feels like it is rigged. So far the two deaths for ties has only assisted the town, so I don't see why (for now anyway) we need to mess with game mechanics that were working fine.

As for a suicide pact, you need to trust the town you are running the game for to not do something so stupid, unless it is a way to win like in Tia's case. If it is abused then I would be willing to look at it, but until that time I don't think so.

Einstein wrote:

2) Day and Night Roles
Too often I heard some individuals say they can tell when so and so has a role cause they stay up late or get up early.

Thus with roles in both phases this becomes more difficult to predict.

With roles in both phases this game became confusing. We have had rounds before with a singular role being able to be activated, and that can cause enough confusion, but if you want to add special roles to every man and his dog then no one can follow it. As for watching whether people stay up late or not, those that perform that kind of analysis will be able to do so whether or not they have a night and day role. I disagree with this change wholesale.

Einstein wrote:

3) Time change
Again there were some who were predictable due to time issues. This was to help change that

You didn't change the times. 3/15 has been played fairly regularly recently. I don't know where you got the idea that this was changing the time. Further, you mentioned in the posts changing the times to assist the aussies and kiwis. These times are worse for aussies and kiwis. Also, keep in mind that if you are going to base your times off of GMT that you are aware what GMT is. You don't want to confuse yourself about the times.

Einstein wrote:

4) Events
An event is something broad based. In this case it was a roleblock of anything but kills. It was designed to help the Sk partially and a prepared town as well (though town never found him).

I think we may have had an event role before in one game, but I am trying to recall which game and drawing a blank. It has potential as a way to randomize the final result, but you need to make sure you understand this in relation to the greater mechanics of the game. I am neither for nor against this idea, whilst I won't use it in my mafia's I can see it having a place in mafia games run by others in the future.

Einstein wrote:

5) Cops 1st investigation gets told they were investigated by mod when mafia has serious investigation powers.

This was secretly done this round, as a counterbalance to a skilled mafia player with investigations. Imagine Nolio finding Doctor Watson and using his skills to keep Undeath from investigating mob... lol. I still need to think a good balance out here if ever I mod again and mafia is to get investigations.

I cannot say how strongly I disagree with this point. The idea of investigating someone is it becomes a gamble of trust. By bypassing these mechanics you take something from the game. You also remove one of the advantages the mob have by having an investigative role. The game moderators are meant to facilitate the game without affecting the outcome, and as far as I can see this is contrary to that basic principle.

Einstein wrote:

6) Invincible roles and a story line based upon them
I tried to change the focus of the game to the dynamics of good versus evil than individual players and their actions.

By using plot characters in this manner I hoped to make the story dynamic and fluid.

Again, I can see what you were trying to do here. However, if you do not write it into the story you cannot except townies to be happy when a mobbie suddenly respawns. As Undeath said, if you had written it into the story and the rules for the start then we would have kept Moriarty alive much like we did Poley, with the ability to use Moriarty to the towns advantage. Effectively, you made it appear that you are making the rules up as you go along, which is enough to drive most players away on a permanent basis from your games.

Torqez wrote:

Too many confusing roles loses this focus

Take this as constructive criticism Flint, I am not trying to flame you I am trying to explain things to you. Effectively, you attempted to make this overly complex, and it has continuously backfired. Solo writing a mafia game is one of the hardest things in this game; even if you are solo writing you still need to bounce your ideas off of someone before you begin and ensure that they are written clearly into the rules. I disagree with change for changes sake, when other mechanics are already working, and this also is something that you have appeared to do.

Another piece of constructive criticism. The lynch phases; we have a format we write the votes up in so that people can read and understand the votes at a glance. We also place the final votes in the post with the story, so that those that analyse votes can find it more easily. If you aren't going to post it in the story, then at least post it at some point, because several votes now we have no final vote count. This is an important part of the game that you appear to have ignored wholesale.

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Re: My Mafia changes explained

in einsteins defence, image if he added the baker street irregulars wink

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Re: My Mafia changes explained

I will analyze this game for a fee

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