1 (edited by xeno syndicated 23-Jan-2012 01:51:07)

Topic: Sopa / Pipa

How many people died today, I wonder, because the patent for the drug they needed in order to survive was tied up in some decade-long legal dispute - a dispute when settled would result in no one being able to afford the drug anyway due to all the legal costs involved in settling the dispute?

5 million?

20 million?

And legislators in favor of SOPA and PIPA want to go the OPPOSITE direction from remedying what is in effect a crime perpetuated on humanity?

Seriously?

Re: Sopa / Pipa

Because owners of intellectual property need to protect it in order to recupperate costs in development? Otherwise you are just increasing the risk present with persuing a new idea (ie. you may actually lose capital and time in developing a new product, that someone else capitalises off because they have better means of production?)

SOPA/PIPA may not be desirable, but something else is needed to protect against piracy and protect people's interests. Otherwise the pirates in Somalia are justified in taking cargo off ships because they are in need.

I give your invention the worst score imaginable. An A minus MINUS!
~Wornstrum~

Re: Sopa / Pipa

Say I won the lottery, got educated in medicine. I then spent all $50,000,000 in super hightech gear and facilities to test thousands of variations of things on rats in an automated manner.

Say I found the cure for cancer.

To me this is priceless... the money this can bring in can fund future research, my purchase of a sports team, fund my Presidential bid, and more.


Then as I am writing up the Patent you change the law to your proposal.

I have no means to mass produce... others will make profit, but I won't.

I burn all information on the cure, shut down my facility, and wait for the law to change back.



Now here is MY ULTIMATUMN.

Answer the dilemna I posted, or ask legit questions to me about this, or I do not post here again.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

4 (edited by xeno syndicated 22-Jan-2012 20:40:16)

Re: Sopa / Pipa

Every legislator who is to sign either of these bills (or anyone like it) should do so with a hand on a Gutenberg Bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutenberg_Bible

Re: Sopa / Pipa

Right, I am guessing you are referring to this because it was the first book printed using a printing press.

Johannes Gutenberg, the inventor of said press, actually lost his printing press after the investor was unhappy with the expenses of his capital. Furthermore, he went bankrupt...so for everyone else, yes the printing press revolutionised the world, but the inventor actually lost everything following his invention...

The first applications of the printing press were also to make money:

"At the same time, the press was also printing other, more lucrative texts (possibly Latin grammars). There is also some speculation that there may have been two presses, one for the pedestrian texts, and one for the Bible. One of the profit-making enterprises of the new press was the printing of thousands of indulgences for the church, documented from 1454

I give your invention the worst score imaginable. An A minus MINUS!
~Wornstrum~

6 (edited by xeno syndicated 22-Jan-2012 22:47:59)

Re: Sopa / Pipa

Here's a indication how serious this is: cyberwar resulting from this already.

http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Security/SOPA-

Re: Sopa / Pipa

You're a sick person if you cure cancer and then don't give it to mankind for free Flint.

Re: Sopa / Pipa

Not at all, if pharmaceutical companies couldn't make profit, they wouldn't research. If you have to rely on universities alone to do medical studies you'd miss out on a lot.
In this care I have to side with Flint.

NEE NAW NEE NAW

Primo

Re: Sopa / Pipa

And your greedy for not allowing me to repay the cash I put in, the time and effort factor, for my genius, and to prevent me from realizing very small profits compared to most drugs (most drugs can take 500 million to produce, my 50 million cure is a steal)

Yes I would destroy it if the laws punish inventors. In a heart beat.

You only make the rich richer eliminating patents.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

10 (edited by ~Wornstrum~ 22-Jan-2012 23:53:02)

Re: Sopa / Pipa

Even universities would lose investment if there was no possibility of return on investment. Furthermore, it costs money to simply produce and distribute the medication. Providing it for free would mean the inventor is essentially paying for everyone. Furthermore, if a company has NO capital to buy the products needed to produce the medicine, noone will get access to it regardless (so providing it for free would cause problems...)

I also wonder how much it would cost some to produce it themselves if they had access to the information, because I thought a patent just stops someone from making money off an idea, someone can still copy for personal use right?

I give your invention the worst score imaginable. An A minus MINUS!
~Wornstrum~

Re: Sopa / Pipa

I happen to have been involved in some research about this sort of situation concerning bacteriophage technology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacteriophage). Bacteriophages are organisms that kill bacteria. If you are able to deliver this to bacteria in the body, this would be perfect to replace, or to use next to antibiotics, which would in turn also solve the increasing problem of immunity to antibiotics, and give the medical world a whole new weapon in the fight against viruses etc. This technology has been used in Eastern Europe since forever (over a century), but has failed to catch on in the western world. Pharmaceutical companies refuse to invest in research simply because it doesn't have a clear place in both the European as the American medical laws. Companies are not able to protect their investments, so they don't.
Lately some initiative has been taken to give this a clear spot, and already some companies are jumping on the posibility.
Imagine how many lives could have been saved if this technology would have been available. (For instance, it's very likely the EHEC outbreak in Germany last year would have been solved without casualties.)

NEE NAW NEE NAW

Primo

12 (edited by ~Wornstrum~ 23-Jan-2012 00:04:06)

Re: Sopa / Pipa

> Einstein wrote:

> And your greedy for not allowing me to repay the cash I put in, the time and effort factor, for my genius, and to prevent me from realizing very small profits compared to most drugs (most drugs can take 500 million to produce, my 50 million cure is a steal)

Yes I would destroy it if the laws punish inventors. In a heart beat.

You only make the rich richer eliminating patents.


Not having patent laws doesnt punish an inventor, it just doesn't protect the inventor (slight difference, but I think the difference would actually be in the original intent). For example, without protection, you are disinclined to invent but if it has already been invented by you, you would at least try and regain profit (since there would be no further harm in doing so, ie. You do not lose anymore money but regain some lose). If you were to be punished, you would not release even if you have a cure (because you lose more). It really stems from whether you have a cure, compared to the desire.

I give your invention the worst score imaginable. An A minus MINUS!
~Wornstrum~

Re: Sopa / Pipa

Bacteriophages actually don't constitute as organisms big_smile.


/me is done posting.



The fact that universities would not be able to succesfully cover all of the pharmaceutical sector, does not mean that the pharmaceutical companies do not make exceptionally large profits.
How do you combat this and make them invest more into research that wouldn't turn as large profits (such as diseases largily concentrated in 3rd world countries or rare diseases with small amounts of affected people)? The person to come up with a plan for this would be a worldwide hero.

And so, even if the current system isn't optimal, it still manages to maintain itself for lack of a better alternative.

Maar doodslaan deed hij niet, want tussen droom en daad,
Staan wetten in de weg en praktische bezwaren,
En ook weemoedigheid, die niemand kan verklaren,
En die des avonds komt, wanneer men slapen gaat.

Re: Sopa / Pipa

That is one of the big problems in placing them in the medical law RD, according to many experts they are micro-organisms.

The matter of how much profit something is allowed to generate is always a tricky situation. How much should a banker be allowed to get as bonus, how much should a government worker get when he's fired.
It may sound harsh, but letting the market regulate it could be a form of survival of the fittest.

NEE NAW NEE NAW

Primo

15 (edited by RisingDown 23-Jan-2012 00:13:43)

Re: Sopa / Pipa

bacteriophages basically being specialized viruses, lack the same requirements to be qualified for being "alive" as regular viruses: the lack of autonomous reproduction and metabolism tongue

but that's not really the topic of this thread, is it? haha
plus it's just ant-[idisestablishmentarianism];) (me loves Dutch figures of speech)

Maar doodslaan deed hij niet, want tussen droom en daad,
Staan wetten in de weg en praktische bezwaren,
En ook weemoedigheid, die niemand kan verklaren,
En die des avonds komt, wanneer men slapen gaat.

Re: Sopa / Pipa

hehe, we should continue this discussion sometime, but indeed not here tongue

NEE NAW NEE NAW

Primo

Re: Sopa / Pipa

Same with remedies made with common herbs and plants. Same with other home remedies.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Sopa / Pipa

Like leeches!  big_smile

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Sopa / Pipa

I would like to start a petition, asking legislators who will sign such bills as PIPA or SOPA, legislators of any and every legislature of any and every parliament of any and every country that intends to sign such bills into effect do so with a hand on a copy of the Gutenberg Bible.

Whose with me?

20 (edited by ~Wornstrum~ 23-Jan-2012 13:04:04)

Re: Sopa / Pipa

Why a Gutenberg Bible? And do you really think that would change anything?

I give your invention the worst score imaginable. An A minus MINUS!
~Wornstrum~

Re: Sopa / Pipa

Heck the Democrats pushing this might accidentally try to use it as toilet paper...

And Wornstrum think on it... he cannot see the flaw in that idea either.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Sopa / Pipa

What is the flaw? Oh, I see, yes, I suppose representatives who would be stupid enough to sign the bill wouldn't be educated enough to be capable of understanding the symbolism involved...

Re: Sopa / Pipa

> xeno syndicated wrote:

> What is the flaw? Oh, I see, yes, I suppose representatives who would be stupid enough to sign the bill wouldn't be educated enough to be capable of understanding the symbolism involved...


I did understand the symbolism involved, the need to protect inventors (as outlined by my previous post...so I am guessing you missed it, so I will repost it here):

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Right, I am guessing you are referring to this because it was the first book printed using a printing press.

Johannes Gutenberg, the inventor of said press, actually lost his printing press after the investor was unhappy with the expenses of his capital. Furthermore, he went bankrupt...so for everyone else, yes the printing press revolutionised the world, but the inventor actually lost everything following his invention...

The first applications of the printing press were also to make money:

"At the same time, the press was also printing other, more lucrative texts (possibly Latin grammars). There is also some speculation that there may have been two presses, one for the pedestrian texts, and one for the Bible. One of the profit-making enterprises of the new press was the printing of thousands of indulgences for the church, documented from 1454

I give your invention the worst score imaginable. An A minus MINUS!
~Wornstrum~

Re: Sopa / Pipa

Notice he avoids my argument?

It destroys his worldview, like antimatter to matter.

So he cannot address it

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Sopa / Pipa

@zarf:
To bad the other thread got closed before I had the chance to create a full answer, tough I see why. Maybe I should reassemble my answer and repost it if you still care Zarf? I have little time tough so it might take me 2-3 days to fully reply.