Topic: Solving Sovereign Debt

It's very simple.  One way to solve it would be to simply put everyone who is unemployed to work on government infrastructure projects, new bridges, more roads, passenger train-lines, etc..  Include for the worker all benefits imaginable: health, dental, housing, food subsidies.   Raise taxes on everyone, institute trade protectionist measures and tax incentives to new business in domestic industrial / manufacturing production.  Use funds to pay back the debt ASAP.  We could do so in a matter of years rather than decades.

After debt is paid-off in like 5 years, then lower taxes.  And let free-market capitalists have another go at it; this time police them better.

Re: Solving Sovereign Debt

lord Keynes is back! tongue

Re: Solving Sovereign Debt

So the Government has $100. Just a random number...

You want them to spend it on infrastructure, which then the payroll gets taxed and also on materials for the infrastructure.

Assuming you can get all resources in country with no issues due to protectinist policy resulting in much reduced trade.

Even at a 99% tax rate you falter eventually.

Sigh... when will they learn.


Instead how about reduce regulations, lower taxes, drop spending, and keep a firm line on this for a decade which will signal the plan is long term which will bring businesses into your nation?

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
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Re: Solving Sovereign Debt

I call dibs on the protectionism debate!

Why would you possibly think it's a good idea to put tariffs on imports when, empirically, it brought an already stagnant economy into the shitter during the Great Depression?

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Re: Solving Sovereign Debt

There would be one goal and one goal alone to the measures taken: pay off the debt - ALL OF IT - ASAP

Protectionist measures would be necessary in this regard.  Without them a high-tax environment would last too long, and stifle any productivity gains.

No, protectionist policies would be necessary if it were to work.

Re Einstein's resources issue: there are plenty of resources, just not accessible.  Infrastructure projects would be designed to make the resources accessible, and protectionist policies would be such to make the extraction of said resources economically feasible.

In other words, subsidize and protect resource sector with increased taxes and protectionist policies until after infrastructure projects are complete and domestic resource sector is re-vitalized.  As for manufacturing sector, to some extent it would have been re-vitalized by this point as well, but protectionist policies in this sector should be instituted only insofar as leveling the playing field and resolving the trade deficit.

6 (edited by Zarf BeebleBrix 23-Oct-2011 18:37:37)

Re: Solving Sovereign Debt

Soooooooo... your answer is "screw it, who cares about a global economic crisis from protectionism?"

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Re: Solving Sovereign Debt

Re Zarf's tarrifs during great depression:

It would work if the right tariffs were imposed; not tariffs across the board.  Just tariffs on resources and perhaps machinery used for infrastructure projects.

8 (edited by Zarf BeebleBrix 23-Oct-2011 18:57:32)

Re: Solving Sovereign Debt

Um.... so... you want to increase the cost of the very government projects you wish to institute?  Um... yeah, that's not a net revenue gain when the government is essentially the one paying the tariff to itself.  hmm

As for resources, those are across the board tariffs anyway.  Charging a business a tariff on needed imported resources has the exact same effect on trade as charging the business a tariff on the resources needed to produce that tariff.

One other note: The Great Depression problems weren't just an isolated trigger of US tariffs.  When the US placed its tariffs on imports, other countries retaliated by placing tariffs on US exports... thus starting a trade war.  This type of trade war still occurs in modern times... remember the steel tariffs during the Bush years?  tongue

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Re: Solving Sovereign Debt

even though the terrif increases the prices on good, i don't think the entire idea is to force us to pay more for the materials we need, it is to force companies to move back into our country to avoid these terrifs and thus bring the production back here.

as for the government jobs/raising taxes i have to agree with this, saying that a tax of 99% on these jobs means you run out is a poor observation that states ALL of the jobs are produced and supported by the government, this obviously isnt true so there is more tax money than the payroll of the government jobs.

it seems we are coming to a impasse, do we increase funding or cut back on the government, i personally feel we need almost every aspect of the government programs we have right now and would willingly pay more taxes to support them.


im going to act like any of these so called bills they send to congress and attach random ideas in the attempt to slip them by, I feel that there should no longer be political parties, they divide the people often over only a few simple arguments while they do not fully agree with every part of the parties, they also create an image of strength that crushes 3rd parties. i project that every person would run as an indipendant.

i watched the movie margin call, it was entertaining and gives you an insight on how the companies mindsets are.

Re: Solving Sovereign Debt

> twosidedeath wrote:

> even though the terrif increases the prices on good, i don't think the entire idea is to force us to pay more for the materials we need, it is to force companies to move back into our country to avoid these terrifs and thus bring the production back here.




Since when did we excuse policies just because they had good intentions, despite having terrible consequences?

Even if tariffs bring production back to the home country, the net gain from production doesn't outweigh the benefit to consumers able to pay less for the same items, both because they force businesses to use production practices with higher production cost and because they only shift some production, whereas the price change applies to all goods subject to the tariff.  Not to mention that the increased price of the tariff will price some consumers out of the market entirely.

So no... this is a bad idea.

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11 (edited by xeno syndicated 23-Oct-2011 22:56:24)

Re: Solving Sovereign Debt

> Zarf BeebleBrix wrote:

> Um.... so... you want to increase the cost of the very government projects you wish to institute?  Um... yeah, that's not a net revenue gain when the government is essentially the one paying the tariff to itself.  hmm

The increased costs are justified because since the production is domestic and profits are held / re-invested domestically it creates jobs and stimulates the economy.

>As for resources, those are across the board tariffs anyway.  Charging a business a tariff on needed imported resources has the exact same effect on trade as charging the business a tariff on the resources needed to produce that tariff.

The purpose of tariffs on imported goods is to promote businesses to purchase domestically produced goods, thereby keeping profits, investment, and JOBS in the country.

>One other note: The Great Depression problems weren't just an isolated trigger of US tariffs.  When the US placed its tariffs on imports, other countries retaliated by placing tariffs on US exports... thus starting a trade war.  This type of trade war still occurs in modern times... remember the steel tariffs during the Bush years?  tongue

Yes.  It's been long enough now that developing economies have benefited from liberal trade policies of the developed world without reciprocating with corresponding liberal trade policies. Instead, they perpetuate an justice against their own people by taking measures to sabotage the development of their own domestic economies so as to keep wages low and thereby maintain their dominance in exports markets.  These developing economies are fully capable of developing their own consumer-based economies and for the good of everyone they need to do so now.  Weened them off their reliance on their exports sectors by adopting protectionist policies.

Protectionism would be better for everyone long-term.  It would force the developing world to do the right thing and develop consumerism and services-based sectors in their domestic economies, and it would restore the developed economies resource and manufacturing sectors, leveling the playing field for all.

Re: Solving Sovereign Debt

Nobody has any idea how to solve the financial crisis.

Re: Solving Sovereign Debt

Yes, they do.  They know exactly what has to be done, but lack the political will do do it.

Re: Solving Sovereign Debt

"One way to solve it would be to simply put everyone who is unemployed to work on government infrastructure projects, new bridges, more roads, passenger train-lines, etc.."
It would be ineffective. When you take into account that a large part of those unemployed are not motivated or cunning enough to the jobs you force them to do.

You need a very large bureaucracy doing only bureaucracy. Those people otherwise do valuable things in other jobs. Add to this every bureaucracy has its own corruption to face and people will hide not to work.

You will use more resources to build those things, increasing the prices of those resources.

"Include for the worker all benefits imaginable: health, dental, housing, food subsidies."
So those workers will use a lot of resources an money.

"Raise taxes on everyone,"
That has always been proven impossible. Mostly the "heavy taxes on the rich" only affect some or mediocre players in this game.

"Use funds to pay back the debt ASAP.  We could do so in a matter of years rather than decades."
But you are going to make new debt for those workers, so how then? If you raise taxes so high, people will starve.

"And let free-market capitalists have another go at it; this time police them better."
They are already policed a lot in a criminal way that is the cause of many problems we face today: artificial Monopolies inflicted by the state, Incompetent managers that remain in power with tax money, companies that have advantages they shouldn't have and ruin better more healthy companies...etc

Re: Solving Sovereign Debt

go watch zeitgeist!

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Re: Solving Sovereign Debt

> Little Paul wrote:

> "One way to solve it would be to simply put everyone who is unemployed to work on government infrastructure projects, new bridges, more roads, passenger train-lines, etc.."
It would be ineffective. When you take into account that a large part of those unemployed are not motivated or cunning enough to the jobs you force them to do.
* How do you know about the level of motivation or how cunning they are?  You are simply biased in your stereotypical false assumption about unemployed people.  The unemployed are fully motivated, fully capable of doing a variety of jobs.  Most jobs out there that require so called 'specialized' qualifications, a monkey could be trained to do.  Honestly, how many years of job-specific training does it take to be able to read a tele-prompter.

You need a very large bureaucracy doing only bureaucracy.

*  Where do you get this from?  All you would need is a small portion of the current bureaucracy.  Instead of offices whose sole function it has been to pucker up to the corporate elite, those same offices would now be dishing out the mandates of the government upon heads of corporations, informing those corporations how they have been bestowed the privilege or are no longer bestowed the privilege of being permitted to continue their business in this country. 

Those people otherwise do valuable things in other jobs. Add to this every bureaucracy has its own corruption to face and people will hide not to work.

*Again, this is just your stereotypical false assumptions and errant bias against workers and their motivation.  not even going to respond to this.

You will use more resources to build those things, increasing the prices of those resources.

* And those companies who are permitted the privilege of doing business in this country will be required to purchase those resources.

"Include for the worker all benefits imaginable: health, dental, housing, food subsidies."
So those workers will use a lot of resources an money.

*You bet they will, using DOMESTICALLY produced resources and SPENDING domestically produced income or DOMESTICALLY produced products.

"Raise taxes on everyone,"
That has always been proven impossible. Mostly the "heavy taxes on the rich" only affect some or mediocre players in this game.

*When the shift comes, it will be such: no longer will it be the notion that our society must cater to the business elite, but, rather, that the business elite, if they wish to profit at all by the efforts of our nation, will have to cater to the dictates of the Nation, who are supposedly to derive its direction from the will of the people, not of the business elite.

If the corporation wants to derive its profit in this nation, it should do so according to the rules, laws, regulations set for by the will of the people, else that corporation can @#%-off; there are plenty of other corporations to choose from to SERVE the needs and wants of the people.

After protectionist measures by government have allowed for many DOMESTIC corporations to be able to produce domestically-manufactured products from domestically-extracted natural resources, there will be plenty of corporations for the nation to choose to bestow the privilege of serving our nation.  A nation is a people who by their lifestyle and day-to-day functions are capable of doing work in exchange for wages, AND THEY ARE NOT GOING TO BE GOING ANYWHERE.  If the corporation wants to serve that population, it must come to the population and serve the nation on the nation's terms, not the corporation's terms. 

It is not the nation - the people - who have to suffer indignities and injustices so as to make their economy a desirable place for a corporation to do business.  No.  This is not necessary.  Instead, the nation can set the laws and regulations so as to create a society in which dignity and justice is afforded to all people.  Corporations, if they wish to do business within said society, are REQUIRED to comply with the said stipulated laws and regulations set for by the will of the people, OR ELSE THOSE CORPORATIONS CAN $#% OFF to some other country.  Do their business there.  But this nation's government and elected representatives certainly wouldn't be stupid or corrupt enough to allow those corporations, after they've f@#ed-off to sell their off-shore produced products in our economy, or would they?  Unfortunately, our government representatives have been that stupid and corrupt.  For the past 30 years they have continued to allow such corporations, who have @#%-ed off to other countries and taken our jobs with them for the simple reason that those corporations wished to seek more business- friendly economic environments - that is economies in which the vast majority of workers are paid virtual slave-wages, where they can pay no taxes, and where they are permitted to extract all the profits from those countries in which they do business.  Yet, the nation continues to allow products from those corporations to be sold within our borders.  Despicable.

Their privilege to sell their products within the borders of a nation is to be disqualified, that is canceled, once that corporation opts not to adhere to the rules and regulations by which that business is permitted to do business within the nation as set forth by the will of the people.   

Protectionism is necessary to reinstate the values of dignity and justice in our country and to prevent the further siphoning of our nation's wealth from future generations.

"Use funds to pay back the debt ASAP.  We could do so in a matter of years rather than decades."
But you are going to make new debt for those workers, so how then? If you raise taxes so high, people will starve.

Debt for new workers?  How could they incur debt when they are all employed?  Taxes raised pay off the debt immediately, thereby increasing the value of the dollar once again, and increasing the purchasing power per capita of everyone in the nation right from the start.  There is no risk of starvation.  Heck the increased taxes pay for food stamps, universal health care, - essentials to keep the worker health and happy over the period of 5 years of intensive debt-repayment.   

"And let free-market capitalists have another go at it; this time police them better."
They are already policed

*The corporation is more powerful than the state, and subverts the will of the people at every turn.  There are countless of examples.  They lobby and bribe government to continue allowing them to do so.  They are not policed at all.

a lot in a criminal way that is the cause of many problems we face today: artificial Monopolies inflicted by the state, Incompetent managers that remain in power with tax money, companies that have advantages they shouldn't have and ruin better more healthy companies...etc

*I agree that the government-run monopolies and incompetent managers that remain in power and waste tax dollars and the inability for more healthy companies to emerge in the economy is a real and pressing danger to our society.  I totally agree.  But this is a result not of the failure of government, but the failure of those in government who have been corrupted by corrupt system of governance.  And this has got to change, first, before anything else can be done.  governments and corporations need to do house-cleaning in many respects, starting with those who hold the notion that society should cater to the corporation, for this so FALSE.

It is the corporation who should cater to the populace, the nation, and the nation has the right and the power to enforce this.  In my opinion, it is long past due that government enforce this, for the good of our society, for dignity and justice of our citizenry.

Re: Solving Sovereign Debt

All this while ignoring four centuries of evidence this does not work

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
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Re: Solving Sovereign Debt

What do you think this is, Einstein?  What do you want to label this?

19 (edited by Zarf BeebleBrix 25-Oct-2011 02:20:19)

Re: Solving Sovereign Debt

Keynesian economics and steep protectionism.  That's what you call it.

(still working on my post to the protectionism debate... you know me... longwinded and all) tongue

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20 (edited by Justinian I 25-Oct-2011 02:44:02)

Re: Solving Sovereign Debt

Silly people. Keynesian economics is very much alive, it works, and it has been practiced by the government even under Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II. You only say otherwise because you don't understand it. The Republican and Democrat disagreement is largely centered on what Keynesian strategies, and under what circumstances, are most appropriate. Moreover, the globalizing economy and Monetarist contributions of Milton Friedman have complicated macroeconomics.

That said, a sudden resolution to the national debt would have a catastrophic effect. We should add more tax brackets and heavily tax the super rich (the top 1/10 of a percent), but lolz at the idea of heavy tariffs and high taxes on everyone.

Re: Solving Sovereign Debt

What I am calling for will have to happen eventually.  Better now than later.

Re: Solving Sovereign Debt

if you want to realistically tax the "rich" then you have to rewrite tax laws.  the only people who get hurt by increased taxes are the intellectual classes like doctors, lawyers etc who spend most of their lives in school and work very long hours.  before anyone goes off on a random troll, new doctors and lawyers dont make anything in this economy and even the very successful make 100 times less less than your liberal pariahs like john stewart who is hilarious but doesnt pay any taxes.

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Re: Solving Sovereign Debt

"Silly people. Keynesian economics is very much alive, it works, and it has been practiced by the government even under Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II. You only say otherwise because you don't understand it. "

I can believe that and believe that all the contemporaries spewing at Bush and Reagan for not raising govt spending to X% GDP were wrong about "Keynesian economics"  AND all those who said in the 1990s "Spending X% GDP seems unnecessary, guess Keynesian economics were wrong" --and that includes a lot of economists in USA and Europe

or

I can believe you don't understand what Keynesian economics is.

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Re: Solving Sovereign Debt

Chris,

Keynesian Economics states that the government can increase consumer spending by:

1. Government spending
2. Lowering taxes

The fact that you say he only recommended 1 is proof that you do not understand Keynesian theory, and I'm not going to teach you.

Re: Solving Sovereign Debt

Look up Laffer Curve amd then Keynesian.

!!

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
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