Oh Justi, never change.

Not that IA or yourself have provided links and my argument was one relying on rationalist concepts, which is the way to argue with IA, but...

http://www.artsusa.org/get_involved/advocacy/funding_resources/default_005.asp
- Is from the Arts USA site, but includes better references

Also
http://www.ifacca.org/national_agency_news/2004/08/12/new-study-reveals-arts-education-benefits/

and

http://artspolicies.org/2009/02/03/introduction/

Also if there is benefit in Art then there is benefit in Art class at school, a simple logical argument. If you can argue that art itself has no value then please do so, but the fact that works of art are universally desired and valued by society shows that art has value, and thus teaching art has value.

robert heinlein said "A government funded artist is an incompetent whore"

It seems to me that the place to have an argument on the value of art is not on an online sci-fi futuristic space games forums, as it will be overly populated by science and math geeks. It goes back to the principle that just because you don't enjoy it doesn't mean others don't.

@WFS

They're not talking about "getting rid of" art.  Art can and does exist at the private level.  Hell, I'd say the very fact that it exists means it has some value (Imperial Conflict provides a service customers enjoy, despite having no necessary benefits to society).  The question at hand is, essentially, whether art provide a public service which warrants use of public funds.  If the only people benefited by art, for example, are the people engaged in the transaction, the business transaction which created the art would be the only incentive needed for the artist to produce the art.  To justify public funding of art, you would need to show a significant enough public benefit for art that's not compensated through the exchange.

Now, art classes, I'm not sure I agree with OP on.  Public schools are made, essentially, to give people a trade.  Some people are talented at writing.  Some are talented in auto repair.  Remember, people have natural talents and weaknesses.  You can't force everyone to be a scientist, unless you want a ton of terrible scientists.  But since there are people who like art, it means art is a product which people are willing to pay to obtain, making it both a useful item and thus a useful trade.  If we don't consider art a trade in the sense that it offers a service people request for some joy, the same logic could be applied against dozens of industries meant solely to provide entertainment.  But... if it's a trade that people are willing to pay for, and it doesn't hurt anyone, why not teach it as a possible future for people?

If people want to see art, they want to pay for art.

Ergo, it doesn't need government funding.

Art provides an impact on the culture of a society greater than it's perceived impact at the time of creation, therefore if left to private investment it would be under-utilised. Therefore it should have public funding to a degree to ensure the wider cultural impact is received, thus benefiting society as a whole.

Examples: Artists who are now considered among the best, but were under-rated at the time they were creating. Art which has a political message which may not be accepted at the time, but help paves the way for future gains.

man I could say much about contemporary art     ...it smells

*leaves the closet*

No art = no inclination for innovation, which = no scientific / technological advancement, which = stagnate society.  This is the problem of our age, the stagnant society we are facing as a result of the collapse of the appreciation for the advancements of the human intellect in all academic fields due, primarily, to the study of art.

> xeno syndicated wrote:

> No art = no inclination for innovation, which = no scientific / technological advancement, which = stagnate society.  This is the problem of our age, the stagnant society we are facing as a result of the collapse of the appreciation for the advancements of the human intellect in all academic fields due, primarily, to the study of art.

I disagree.

Science is based on rules. The scientific method requires the formation of hypotheses, continuous testing of hypotheses, independent reproduction of results and a solid theoretical foundation. Science is the systematic study of objective reality, not subjective nonsense.

Art revolves entirely around the spontaneous generation of subjective nonsense. The purpose of art is to entertain and amuse, not to be useful.

Indeed, the very definition of art is something frivolous and useless. If something is useful then it cannot be called art.

Total receipts

Estimated receipts for fiscal year 2012 are $2.627 trillion.
$1.141 trillion - Individual income tax
$925 billion - Social Security and other payroll tax
$329 billion - Corporate income tax
$103 billion - Excise tax
$30.0 billion - Customs duties
$14.0 billion - Estate and gift taxes
$66.0 billion - Deposits of earnings and Federal Reserve System
$20.0 billion - Other

Total spending

Further information: Government spending
The President's budget for 2012 totals $3.729 trillion. Percentages in parentheses indicate percentage change compared to 2011. This budget request is broken down by the following expenditures:

Mandatory spending: $2.109 trillion (-3.2%)

$761 billion (+4.6%) - Social Security
$468 billion (-4.1%) - Medicare
$269 billion (-2.5%) - Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP)
$598 billion (-16.2%) - Unemployment/Welfare/Other mandatory spending
$240 billion (+17.1%) - Interest on National Debt

Discretionary spending: $1.344 trillion (-3.1%)

$553.0 billion (+0.7%) - Department of Defense
$126.3 billion (-23.3%) - Overseas Contingency Operations
$79.9 billion (-1.8%) - Department of Health and Human Services
$77.4 billion (+6.2%) - Department of Education
$58.8 billion (+3.1%) - Department of Veterans Affairs
$49.8 billion (+0.5%) - Department of Housing and Urban Development
$50.1 billion (-0.9%) - Department of State and Other International Programs
$43.2 billion (-0.9%) - Department of Homeland Security
$29.6 billion (+4.2%) - Department of Energy
$28.2 billion (-7.2%) - Department of Justice
$23.8 billion (-7.1%) - Department of Agriculture
$18.2 billion (-6.7%) - National Aeronautics and Space Administration
$13.4 billion (-4.1%) - Department of Transportation
$14.0 billion (+0.8%) - Department of the Treasury
$12.1 billion (+0.3%) - Department of the Interior
$12.8 billion (-8.3%) - Department of Labor
$13.0 billion (-53.6%) - Troubled Asset Relief Program
$6.0 billion (+200%) - Disaster costs
$44.9 billion (-3.9%) - Other On-budget Discretionary Spending
The Iraq War and the War in Afghanistan are not included in the Department of Defense regular budget, but are included in Overseas Contingency Operations.

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I see 700 billions for army but nothing for art, not sure the art funding is what screws ur eco...