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Topic: Republics/Democracy = Plutocracy

It is obvious that Republics/Democratic governments of large populations tend to actually be Plutocracies. It was true in Rome, Venice and Belgium. Furthermore, it is also true in modern Western states. Moreover, the evolution of democracy in the West correlates with the rise of commerce and a powerful merchant class that dominated government.

As far as I'm concerned, it is the economic development of Western states that has caused the higher standard of living, and also the government. Democracy only represents the finalized transfer of power from the old nobility to the commercial class.

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Re: Republics/Democracy = Plutocracy

I think its more like organization and communication skills leads to political and financial success, all things being equal

of course now they're gaming the system for Govt to guarantee Wall Street

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

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Re: Republics/Democracy = Plutocracy

What are you saying?

That people with superior organization/communication skills have a competitive advantage for success, and therefore the fact that the wealthy dominate politics is dependent on their skills rather than financial advantages?

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Re: Republics/Democracy = Plutocracy

pretty much, although, playas get they paper if they game is tight, and if htey want leverage thats for you to decide, but as long as you aint slippin and you doin it right, togetha they go hand in hand

oh yeah

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

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Re: Republics/Democracy = Plutocracy

I'm going to react when I have some more time, in a week or so.

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Re: Republics/Democracy = Plutocracy

"It was true in Rome, Venice and Belgium."

Do elaborate.. How do we have a plutocracy?

God: Behold ye angels, I have created the ass.. Throughout the ages to come men and women shall grab hold of these and shout my name...

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Re: Republics/Democracy = Plutocracy

Belgium is more like a HueyDeweyLouiecracy

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

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Re: Republics/Democracy = Plutocracy

> Wild Flower Soul wrote:

> "It was true in Rome, Venice and Belgium."

Do elaborate.. How do we have a plutocracy?>

I was talking about the Dutch Republic. That said, you are still a Plutocracy. Your commercial elite still dominate politics.

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9 Reply by BiefstukFriet (edited by BiefstukFriet 21-Apr-2010 19:37:38)

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Re: Republics/Democracy = Plutocracy

> Justinian I wrote:

> > Wild Flower Soul wrote:

> "It was true in Rome, Venice and Belgium."

Do elaborate.. How do we have a plutocracy?>

I was talking about the Dutch Republic. That said, you are still a Plutocracy. Your commercial elite still dominate politics.


The Belgians wanted no part of the Dutch Golden Age of Pure Ownage and formed their own kingdom. It's the Republican predecessor of the Kingdom of the Netherlands you refer to, not Belgium.

Je maintiendrai

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Re: Republics/Democracy = Plutocracy

Ah. Well thanks for the correction.

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Re: Republics/Democracy = Plutocracy

Glad to be of help. By the way, the Republic had a long tradition of rivalry between Royalist and Republicans. Even though the Republic is probably the first real capitalist nation, it still had Royalty, so it's more of a Oligarchy.

Je maintiendrai

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Re: Republics/Democracy = Plutocracy

smile. I have no doubt the Republic was a defacto Oligarchy. A Plutocracy usually is also an Oligarchy.

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Re: Republics/Democracy = Plutocracy

"I was talking about the Dutch Republic. That said, you are still a Plutocracy. Your commercial elite still dominate politics."

The dutch republic was indeed without any participation of Belgium. In fact that's what created our current situation (the Belgian-Dutch border was set that time).
That said, Belgium can hardly be called a plutocracy. There are hardly any large industrials in our politics, or even behind the scenes. Otherwise we wouldn't have such notoriously high taxes on economic activities wink

God: Behold ye angels, I have created the ass.. Throughout the ages to come men and women shall grab hold of these and shout my name...

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Re: Republics/Democracy = Plutocracy

> Wild Flower Soul wrote:

> "I was talking about the Dutch Republic. That said, you are still a Plutocracy. Your commercial elite still dominate politics."

The dutch republic was indeed without any participation of Belgium. In fact that's what created our current situation (the Belgian-Dutch border was set that time).
That said, Belgium can hardly be called a plutocracy. There are hardly any large industrials in our politics, or even behind the scenes. Otherwise we wouldn't have such notoriously high taxes on economic activities wink>

Then perhaps you can elaborate on what groups have the most share of political power?

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Re: Republics/Democracy = Plutocracy

French people...

Je maintiendrai

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Re: Republics/Democracy = Plutocracy

'Then perhaps you can elaborate on what groups have the most share of political power?'

We have about 5 to 6 large parties on each side of the language border, and a dozen smaller ones. Most of them are parallell: we have a liberal (continental liberal), christian, socialist, green and a more nationalistic party on each side. A lot of rivaling ideas means a lot of people needed to step in. Our political parties consist, because of this system based on the degree of political engagement, largely out of all sorts of people.. Elected people thus come from all layers of the population.
However, in the top levels, most of the elected are independent lawyers (not working for a firm) or economists (again, not working for a firm)..

The industrious are most in favour of the liberals, as they mostly defend the Adam Smith economy; but that party isn't necesseraly the largest.
Thus, a plutocracy isn't really a correct name for our system. I think it could be argued that the USA is closer to it, as compagnies are allowed to fund parties, wich is illegal in Belgium...

God: Behold ye angels, I have created the ass.. Throughout the ages to come men and women shall grab hold of these and shout my name...

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