> DPS wrote:

> Ok here's my simple solution to the abortion argument; If you don't like abortion don't use it but acknowledge that the moment you try to make it so no one else can use it you are being a dick.  It's like the kid at a birthday party who rips apart the "Pin the Tail on the Donkey" poster because he personally doesn't like it.  Western society is based on freedom and trying to force other people to bend to your point of view is an immense contradiction of that unless you can make a case for the current practice being harmful to society, that's why murder's illegal.  However considering it takes 20+ years before a child is actually useful I don't see you having much success.  It's like arguing against uprooting a sapling because it MAY grow into a large tree that MAY stop a car from being hurled into your living room during a tornado.  Banking on the potential of something is perfectly understandable, it's why we don't just kill off half the children after kindergarten, but banking on the potential of it's potential is just ridiculous.

its funny how you talk about how bad it is to force other people to bend to your point of view, but apparently have no trouble killing completely innocent people who dont have a say in the matter. the government should not give people the freedom to infringe on other people's freedom and thats what abortion does. a fetus isnt someone that has a small chance of becoming a human adult. he will become one unless something tragic happens to him, just like a child. he's just alittle lower in the process.

"When we consider class, I don't see what the point is. If you doom a large percentage of people who could be members of the middle class (which is doable for most people) in to poverty, you compromise the economy."

banning abortion doesnt do that. you're talking about 1-2 months where the mom would have to take time of working towards furthering her career to have the baby.

"The only problem is that demand for adoptions exceed the supply of foster care parents. And that's just unwanted pregnancies that did not result with abortions."

first of all, there is a huge number of parents seeking babies. absolutely huge. they are hugely in demand so much that parents search the globe for them. 2nd, even if every qualified couple had their demand for children filled; orphanages could take care of them, which forces no one to a lower class and still provides a profit for society as a whole once the kids grow up.

"This isn't just a matter of "oh we can replace them with someone somewhere," it's also a reduction of consumption which is a reduction of economic growth potential."

chances are that the lives saved by banning abortion would fill many more mid class jobs where they would consume more. and if someone is stupid enough to ruin their life, most likely they wouldnt be good at a lawyer anyways.

also, if the baby is given up for adoption, the father and most likely the mother would suffer from no such class drop and the three would generate much more wealth then if the fetus was aborted.

> Justinian I wrote:

> > Avo wrote:

so you're basically saying that 1 person's decrease in producation wont be made up by someone else's entire production on average??>

On a micro level, when exchanging a lawyer for an assembly line worker, the lawyer can easily be replaced. But if you have 32 million more people living in poverty rather than the middle class, then a lot of revenue and business is compromised.

but the kid could be a lawyer. and you could say on average the kid wont be a lawyer, but on average, the person getting the abortion wouldnt be a future lawyer either.

> Justinian I wrote:

> A10/Avo

> A10 wrote:

> >Yeah but you are not considering that orphanages cost money and women generate less $

If babies were a drain on society, then maintaining human existence would be impossible. The average human has to positively contribute or resources would run out and society would fundamentally fail in all possible configurations. While orphanages are expensive, each child is an investment. The average child that comes out of there will contribute enough through taxes or other means to make society self sufficient.>

I know that. Even impoverished people tend to generate more $ than they cost. But I'm talking about opportunity cost. This means that of the opportunity to save a life, less revenue will be generated than if a woman is allowed to invest in a higher paying career and post-pone reproduction.

so you're basically saying that 1 person's decrease in producation wont be made up by someone else's entire production on average??

babies consumes less resources if raised by people who can barely support a baby or by an orphanage, actually increasing the chances that the person the baby becomes is not a drain on society.

> sKoE )= wrote:

> You edited the message, so i have no idea if i was just off on a lala tangent, or if my post actually had meaning.

Either way, i am anti-abortion past a few weeks btw. Once the bun is in the oven, its the bakers fault -- not the bun. I think thats something that A10 was also hinting at.

when i edited the post, i edited in "
and we're not the wackos. the wackos are the people insisting on a woman's right to kill another human being." i didnt delete anything.

"So all you pro- lifers out there, what are your opinions? Should illegal abortions be treated as a murder (should the women having the abortion face murder charges)?"

yep. although technically, the doctor is the one that commited the act, the women should be treated as is she hired someone to kill someone else. and the doctor should be charged with murder.

and we're not the wackos. the wackos are the people insisting on a woman's right to kill another human being.

basically, Lex married a widow that had a daughter. and Lex's dad married his step daughter, making Lex his own Grandfather.

"1.  Abortion, Its NOT a Federal Issue.  Its a local issue for Legislation. :"

why do you think that?

also, cant states still make abortion illegal? they just have to define the beginning of life at conception and Roe v Wade doesnt cover it. and actually, the President could make it illegal. the executive branch has the responsibility to enforce laws. if the Executive branch interprets the fetus as a living being, they can arrest everyone involved in an abortion for murder, conspiracy to commit murder, ect. as long as there isnt a law or Supreme Court decision that says the fetus doesnt count as a living being; which im fairly sure doesnt exist.

can you call that benchmarks when they dont give real numbers, just ranks?