1,076

(103 replies, posted in Politics)

I do not defend moral or "unnatural" arguments against gay "marriage."

"Please inform me on how a heterosexual relationship is by default more succesful/productive than a homosexual one?"

Heterosexual relationships are capable of producing children. Homosexual relationships are not. There's distinction in production capacity for you.

[Repost of what I posted above (deleted) because I did a huge edit (ie, more than half the post is new tongue)]

The point, BiefstukFriet, is that marriage as a government institution encourages and rewards those who participate in this endeavor which has the capacity to facilitate ideal procreation. This function differentiates heterosexual unions from homosexual unions--and this function was dictated by nature, not man.

"Why deny someone marriage because they can't pro-create?"

Because they cannot procreate!

Look up form vs coincidence. You'll believe it if I'm not the one explaining it to you.

Edit: Apparently it's not as easy to google a breakdown as I expected. Damn you humanity, not being into logic and philosophy and shizzle! This is, literally, Logic 101 stuff. Or 1001 stuff. You get the idea.

Essentially, whether something is the way it is by form or coincidence matters. Heterosexual unions are, by form, capable of creating children--regardless of the fact that not all heterosexuals are medically capable. They're designed to be capable of this function. Most can. Homosexual unions, on the other hand, by form, are not capable of creating children. They're fundamentally incapable of performing this function. None can. Ever.

The point being that coincidence and some people getting kicked in the nuts doesn't detract from the fact that, by form heterosexuals can perform the function of procreation and homosexuals cannot.

That's not to say that government should be giving them tax breaks for possibly contributing to this function in society, but the distinction is significant. That's an absolutely massive function necessary to society that one group can perform and the other cannot.

I don't think government should have any involvement in the matter (you could [have sex] whoever you want and call it whatever you want), I'm just playing the devil's advocate and offering biology lessons!

If gay people have the RIGHT to get married, if they have the RIGHT to the same cultural legitimacy, don't they have the RIGHT to perform the function which is the source of heterosexual marriage's cultural legitimacy? Oh wait, they can't. Nature just isn't that way. You can't legislate cultural legitimacy any more than you can legislate biology.

I will limit my personal attacks to three paragraphs per post.

I'm not promising not to make them long ones.

No! Three words!

1,079

(103 replies, posted in Politics)

"Invalid. Or we should go back to the renaissance time where a marriage can be disbanded for remaining childless. "

Invalid? That's rather technical language for someone who just failed to discriminate between form and coincidence! ZING!

"The only valid reason for marriage is love. If two people love eachother they should be able to get married. All the rest is bullshit."

So long as the state is doling out tax benefits, I don't see what's wrong with them doing it to reward the productive endeavor of heterosexual marriage. Heterosexual marriage servers a function that homosexual unions do not.

"Your statement alone places you in one camp already. Your definition of "family" is very narrow. You even forgot about lesbian couples, but they seem to be forgot a lot in these discussions."

Lesbians are covered under the term "gay." I heard they like sexual partners of the same gender. That's still the definition for gay, right?

My definition of "family" is the same one that's been used for thousands of years. Are you taking issue with biology and nature? I didn't design sexual reproduction or the natural structure of society (again, for thousands of years) being based on that of the "narrow"ly defined family.

"A same-sex couple is able to form a firm base for kids though, a position well-proved by modern psychologic research."

Yeah, except for that pesky evidence to the contrary. You're quick to claim "proved" for something not remotely conclusive.

"Lesbian couples can conceive them on their own...."

That's just wrong. I can see why your claims on the science were similarly factually inaccurate. tongue




All of you guys like watching and reading about animals [reproducing] way too much. I'm not judging your sexuality, I'm just suggesting that maybe professionals could help you achieve balance in your lives. Whatever that is. Weirdos. tongue




"You have no choice in those distinctions, Einstein, yet you actively choose to deny a certain group the same as others by naming it differently."

I think nature denied them the ability to procreate, but I'll have to look into your theory that it was Einstein's call.

"The will to deny them that makes all the difference. It ultimatly shows you don't approve of it."

Damn you nature, you homophobic, judgemental bigot! Gay people want to create children and form families too! How dare you deny them their right!

" It says: "hey, we disapprove of you and your lifestyle, but we have to remain tolerant towards you". In a way it's the same as the segregation rules before Rosa Parks: You're all on the same bus, but a minority has to sit in an area that's reserved for its them."

Except that black people can do anything white people can do. And homosexuals can't do anything, like procreate, that heterosexuals can. And, as it turns out, procreation is kinda important to society.

I'm for government not being involved in marriage, but the claim that homosexual unions perform the same function in society is just false.

"I feel like I am repeating myself and that the true underlying issue is that you, V. Kemp / Mister Spock, do not see the point that in an ad rem discussion, one can make their points with ad rem arguments. There is no need to result to ad hominem arguments, nor insensitive remarks,  as they do not add anything to similar ad rem arguments content-wise, and they only take away from the discussion."

That's cool. Just ignore everything I said. tongue

"Calling someone a troll does not add anything contentwise to just telling that someone is trolling."

I went over this extensively. You didn't touch anything I said.

"However, when you say that those people are (again) trolls or just simply "elementary school students with inflated egos", you are making ad hominem attacks again."

I simply referenced them. You're ignoring the definition of an ad-hominem fallacy which you posted: I've never based any argument on what labels I reference trolls or other spammers with. You're implying otherwise by presuming I'm making ad-hominem attacks which clearly do not fit the definition you were so kind as to provide.

"you quite often add an argumentum ad hominem as well to boot it. And that is where your argumentation becomes unacceptable for a civilised debate."

You make the ridiculous assumption that there's any civilized debate going on when I'm insensitive. tongue And, again, you claim ad-hominem attacks where your own cited dictionary definition clearly disputes this claim.

"However, when you reply to an undecent discussion in an undecent way, you are just adding to the hopelessness of the overall discussion."

That's your opinion on what's productive.

"As I've said before, it just increases the sum of fallacies."

Again presuming I made fallacious statements which I clearly did not. What fallacies? When have I ever substituted a fallacy for an argument?

"However, resorting to calling a person a troll (rather than simply saying that what he is posting is trolling) is clearly directed to the poster, even if it does have a basis on the subject matter."

Yet it's not substituted for an argument or relied on as a premise.

"There is a simple alternative to calling the person a troll (an argument ad rem that shows that the poster's arguments are trolling), and so is is not necessary to resort to those ad hominem arguments."

Nothing is "necessary." Basing an argument on something not being "necessary" is pointless.

"but it is when you refer this ridiculousness back to a flaw in the opponent's character, or when you base the opponent's character based on these flaws and conclude that, because his posts are ridiculous, that therefore the poster must be ridiculous as well (which would discredit all his arguments due to a character flaw: a clear argumentum ad hominem)."

I simply reference trolls as trolls, and communists as communists. If there was any contention on the matter I'd certainly reevaluate my language. But there isn't. Someone crying about it while never disputing it is hardly a reason to cater to their whimsical emotional preferences in language choice.

"However, when one starts to call out the poster for not participating, that point (the opponent does not participate in the debate) becomes an ad-hominem attack."

I'm sure I could phrase much language to entirely be references to posts and never posters, but I fear it would only be lost on some people even more easily. In any event, pointing out an obvious fact relevant to the discussion is not an ad-hominem attack. We're talking about labels here: At worse, insensitive words. (And I dispute half of the ones mentioned here. But there've certainly been others. tongue) Not personal "attacks," nor ad-hominem arguments in which such attacks are relied upon as if they were logical arguments.

It's a matter of correspondence not even directly about the topic but about the discourse (or, lack thereof). It's like an aside saying "hey uh... wanna actually talk about the topic?" It's not a substitute for content and is never presented as such. It's not an ad-hominem attack. It's a simple observation that arguments aren't being made, and it's an invitation to make them.

"Just pointing out that there is a lack of a counter would have sufficed, the comments on the opponent's self are not necessary."

This ignores the overall health of the forum and the tenacity with which trolls spam.

"I hope you are still following me and my "linguistic tools"." followed by "I do not see how the use of linguistic tools would be an ad hominem attack...."

Do I really need to spell it out for you? tongue If you imply that someone might be incapable of a simple intellectual achievement.... Okay. Enough said. I hope you didn't really need the help.

"One is not a communist unless oneself presents himself as being a communist and comes out for it."

You can't literally rape the English language, so I guess it's not a crime. But no, language doesn't work that way. Words mean things. You can pick and choose which ones you like, but they still mean the same thing and can be just as appropriate and accurate whether someone likes them or not. In fact, whether or not someone has a positive emotional reaction to a word is, as it turns out, completely irrelevant in regard to whether the word means what it means. Words mean what they mean regardless of how anybody feels about them. Words are accurate or inaccurate regardless of whether or not someone likes them.

In the instance brought up, no ideas differing from the label were ever offered. If they had been, the word used may have been inaccurate. But that was not the case. Continually speaking as if there was ever any dispute over my word choice is just silly, because there never was. There was "Don't refer to me as that whaaaaa" but never "You're wrong because [ ]."

Everything you're saying ignores this simple fact. I don't ad-hominem attack anyone over disputed labels, I just use succinct language like a sensible human being. It's not as ridiculous, over-generalized, insulting, or irrational as you claim.

All of your statements are predicated upon the notion that I'm using simple language as ad-hominem attacks when this is never the case. My simple language has never been questioned or disputed, only cried about on rare occasion. That one person cries about language and never disputes it doesn't make that language ad-hominem attacks.

"You do not need to refer to a poster's communist ideals, they are not the subject matter on hand and therefore only are used to make guilt by association arguments."

In the matter in question, there really isn't any subject matter at hand. It's just vague platitudes with absolutely no specificity, ever. No simple questions seeking clarification are ever answered. Only the vaguest actions are proposed, and those are abstract, broadly stated goals without ANY suggested means.

Thus we arrive at me dismissing trolls as trolls. Ohnoes, so mean. QQ.

"If you are not claiming character flaws, nor using labels as a basis for argument, then why do you even have to add such a label to a person?"

Sometimes in posts responding to a multitude of people, it is desirable to reference posters' ideas. Simply referencing the people who share a person's ideology is not an ad-hominem attacks. One might mention "Hitler and other fascists" to give context and clarity to a statement. I don't know where you get the bizarre notion that ever using words to mean things and using those words to refer to people on occasion is inherently ad-hominem attacks all of the time. tongue

"Again, I stress the fact that this adds nothing to the ad rem arguments, and are therefore unnecessary and should be avoided because people can feel offended and can claim abuse"

And you would have forums filled with trolls which immediately turn away anyone with a brain who might otherwise have participated. You have not provided alternative means of encouraging better behavior. The crying suggests I am effective; and I attack ideas, not people. A little insensitivity, often in jest, does not fallacious arguments make.

"I think this quite accurately debunks your disagreement with the fact that the points I made about that line."

You just claimed that an ad-hominem fallacy was present but didn't reference what it was. You didn't even respond to my argument, just beat up a straw-man. I didn't argue that ad-hominem attacks are rational argumentation because I included other stuff too. I explained why nothing constituted ad-hominem attacks and you ignored this. Quite accurate indeed. Just not sure what you were talking about.

"I hope I am being clear enough now, if not, I am perhaps not understanding the arguments you use to disagree with my points."

We're on to something now I can feel it!

"Could you outline them in a clear, punctual way, such as I used to dissect that one line?"

I don't think I'm capable of being that unclear. tongue

"If we have already reached the point where these forums have deteriorated to a garbage bin, then clearly your strategy of using fallacies to counter fallacies has not worked as you had expected it to (to prevent these "trolls" from running amok, as you stated), or at least not optimally."

That's not remotely rational. You have no basis for presuming any level of effectiveness.

"The fallacy-ridden posts (I think we can establish that at this point?) you have used at times in the past, only contribute to this situation without dialogue or debate, with all of the namecalling."

What fallacy-ridden posts? Redefine words all you want, calling an apple an apple doesn't imply an irrational hatred toward trees.

"Yes, you point out a very clear fault in the ignoring strategy, that I had forgotten to account for. I have myself wasted some time on tiring discussions with people not willing to give way on any of their arguments, not even when logically and accurately countered."

I hardly expect logical debate, but it's the very clear intention of never discussing anything that I equate with trolling. It's hardly a stretch to interpret repeated talking-points spam with 0 responses to anything actually said in a discussion as trolling. It's non-responsive garbage posted with the intention of getting reaction. If the level of discussion/debate was low, that'd be one thing, but there's often very clearly no intention of discussing anything, ever.

Throw in references to structuring society based on alien technology and it becomes a bit more obvious in some cases.

"Warning other users before they waste their time may be a valid reason to post...."

Every day!

Sometimes I do get a kick out of reading some of it. Watching a troll (oh crap can I say this?! IS ANYBODY OFFENDED?! OH CRAP SUDDENLY EVERYTHING I SAY IS IRRATIONAL CAUSE I USED THAT WORD!) describe, ultra-vaguely, his notions of a perfect society built around alien technology is pretty hilarious. But this isn't the place.

"Perhaps we could introduce some kind of rating system on these politics forums, such as many other political forums (and just forums in general) use. Of course we have the tag system, which apparently was being worked on (although I have not heard any news of recent developments in quite a long time). Still, maybe we could use this in the future."

That couldn't hurt, but at this point I expect literally nothing. The damage has been done!

"This is however just theorizing and does not give a solution to the problem at hand of the time-wasting discussions without content. But with the mods' more serious stance on the advocating and control of the politics forum, perhaps certain fmods who have knowledge of political debate can warn people when a discussion is going nowhere, saving valuable time."

They're not up to the task. Trolling about aliens escapes their moderation and even gets moderator responses. Because we can seriously contribute content to someone's ideas of society built around fictional alien technology! (in a thread not about some such hypothetical theorizing) Yeah, that has a place on a politics forum in threads about political philosophy and pragmatism!

Just what the politics forum needs more of. This guy:
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/11837275.jpg

"Of course this is just speaking from personal experience, which is never a solid argument, but I hope you see my point of how ad hominem attacks made against serious debaters may scare them away and therefore be detrimental to the debate."

No, I completely understand where you're coming from. And I'm not arguing that ad-hominem attacks are legitimate debate content.

But, after having been here forever, I lose concern for proper and polite debate when those I'm responding to wouldn't know logical argumentation if it punched them in the face. Sometimes it's more succinct to reference certain posters' ideologies with a word that groups them with others who share their beliefs and can be discussed conveniently. If anyone actually took issue with their ideas being misrepresented, that'd be a legitimate discussion to have and it's possible that certain words' continued usage (when disputed) could constitute ad-hominem attacks.

But insofar as that's never happened, I just don't think it's a big deal around here. It's not our biggest problem, and in the case of my calling a communist a communist, it's just silly to begin with. We've examined the most ridiculous example of a label which has never been disputed because, without any argument or explanation, it was cried about.

Most of my insensitive language is in jest or being dismissive of blatant trolling. On a politics forum we're never going to agree on anything, but we don't have to hate each other. There's no reason we can't throw in jabs and ball-busting without derailing discourse. Of course, if there's no discourse, there's nothing to derail. And if someone is eager to stop discussing something without making it obvious that they've abandoned their position(s), suddenly a little jab becomes a huge personal attack to cry about.

1,081

(56 replies, posted in Politics)

Supreme Court decisions against Constitutionally protected property rights have been disgusting and legally baseless (beyond "there's enough of us to make it law!") for too many decades for any hope now.

1,082

(5 replies, posted in Politics)

It's only logical.

1,083

(103 replies, posted in Politics)

Please explain.

I believe that government should make no judgements as to how you live. I believe that government should dole out no benefits, tax-break or otherwise, based on who you choose to live with, marry, [cluck], or otherwise.

So please explain the basis for your assessment that I am a "dick." You've made the claim. Where's your argument. If everyone believed, like me, that everyone should be able to live their life and seek happiness as they see fit, how would that be an ignorant society filled with people who you describe as being dicks.

1,084

(103 replies, posted in Politics)

Legal benefits, mate.

"and that because of said quality the argument the opponent has previously made is declared null and void. Argumenta ad hominem are per definition a fallacy, because these arguments are based on the person of the opponent, rather than the subject at matter in the discussion."

In every case of my being accused of it, no such implication was made. I'm aware of the technical definition, and so we're both obviously aware that it doesn't apply to my case. I make arguments and accompany them with often lengthy explanations. Allegedly insensitive statements are nothing but a little insightful commentary on top of this.

"A decent discussion should always go about the ideas and arguments one makes, not about one self."

Which does not preclude the likelihood that, in the absence of a decent discussion, talking about why it's lacking is probably a fair idea.


"Using the bad form of the writer to discredit his writings would in fact be an ad hominem argument..."

Simply pointing it out isn't.

Calling out a troll isn't an ad-hominem attack. I've done it with loads of examples. I even had someone read a troll's post referencing aliens and basing political philosophy on this faith. He smiled and left the room in less than thirty seconds, saying "he's trolling."

It's not an ad-hominem attack to point out such ridiculousness and ask for better.

"I hope I have helped you come to the insight that even though your opponent may not be discussing in a proper manner, this does not give you an excuse to make ad hominem arguments."

If he's trolling, I don't need an excuse. It's good and respectful to everybody to call him out. And if I'm just pointing out that a poster hasn't even participated in the debate, it's not an ad-hominem attack.

"Using the bad form of the writer to discredit his writings would in fact be an ad hominem argument, as this is directed towards the writer and not the actual content of the post."

If pointing it out were supposedly an argument on content, then yes. But as we well know, I give explanation on content abound. As we've established here, the fallacious logic is presenting ad-hominem attacks as arguments, not criticizing people for not even making arguments. The criticism that people are absolutely ignoring major points without rebuttal or explanation of any kind is not, in fact, an ad-hominem fallacious attack. Yet it is constantly presented as such on this forum. **The crying that resulted in the forum disappearing for 3 days did not even differentiate between language used to describe arguments and language used to describe people.** Just a little minor point.

"I hope you are still following me and my "linguistic tools"."

This is an ad-hominem attack because you're refusing to address the ridiculousness of what you proposed in your initial post. You argued essentially that I shouldn't call communism communism but rather I should list 5+ communist ideals championed by a poster every time I want to refer to their communist ideals. This is just silly.

You nit picked over "true communism" like that's ever even supposedly been a point of contention here. These shenanigans are part of the problem of the garbage that passes for discourse around here.

Nobody ever debated the purity of communism. I simply mentioned a communist as a communist. He claimed offense, yet failed to differentiate his beliefs from communism in months. Then he cried about it. The problem was the absolute drivel level of [lack of] dialogue and crying, not my use of the word "communist" to describe a poster's beliefs.

If I had name-called someone a communist and they rebutted me, your criticism would be legitimate. But I didn't name-call. And nobody ever rebutted my descriptor. Discussing things as they are not is pointless.

"1. Brushing off one's views as communist may be actually based on arguments, however are communists the only group who subscribe to these views? If not, this is an overgeneralisation: Communists hold these views, and therefore everyone who holds these views is a communist."

If it's a large number of views and **nobody claiming offense differentiates their views from Communism in a matter of months,** it's just succinct language. Sure, arguments could be made that it wasn't an apt descriptor. But, given months, the absence of ANY such arguments is substantiation that it was, in fact, just a logical, respectful, succinct descriptor.

"2. Let us say you have proven that one of your opponent's views is communist, just for the sake of argument. Saying however that, because this single view (or even a handful of views) is (/are) communist, that therefore your opponent's other argument(s) are also communist, is a fallacy, falling under the header "Guilt by association"."

Again, large number of views. No exceptions which contradict Communist ideals. No argument whatsoever claiming such.

"3. Now let us say all of your opponents views were to subscribe to Communist ideals, ideals that in this combination are held by no other ideological group. Perhaps, even that the person you are debating with is communist. It matters not, as using these "character flaws" as arguments to nullify your opponents arguments, still is an argumentum ad hominem (namely an abusive argumentum ad hominem)."

I never claimed character flaws. And I absolutely never depended on such a label as a basis for an argument. I think that should be ridiculously evident from the past 12 years. *ad-hominem attacks anyone who thinks otherwise*

"That is 3 fallacies in 1 line. Of course, I picked quite a juicy one, but I hope you realise that this is not an exception in any way, shape or form. Lines like these are quite common in your posts."

Yes, lines which we have established are not ad-hominem attacks. Lines which are not the basis for a single argument I've ever made in my lifetime. Lines which are accurate and have not been disputed by anyone, ever, with an actual argument of any size, type, or complexity. Or even a feeble attempt.

You claimed 3 fallacies. I have stated my disagreement. I am, of course, open to being told where you disagree with my responses to your three claims. I can respect disagreements just fine, but what I'm used to around here is vague claims without any responses disputing a word of what I've said.

"In these lines you express the fear that when you do not keep these "trolls" in check, the forums would deteriorate to a completely embarrassing garbage bin. This, in fact, is an "appeal to probability": the fact that there is a chance that the forums may deteriorate to said garbage bin, in your argument, equals that they inevitably will."

It's neither fear or a prediction. It was a simple assessment of the current state of affairs. When most people who disagree with someone just call them names and **literally** dispute/respond to **nothing** they said, that's not dialogue or debate. When people talk about their faith in alien technology held hostage by the elite like we can possibly have any sort of discourse based on their wild, baseless theories, that's not dialogue or debate.

We're already there.

"This is not necessarily so, as opponents who like to "crap all over the forums" as you say can also be held in check through a different manner than countering their arguments with ad hominem arguments: simply ignoring them. This will deprive the poster of any attention, and a one-sided discussion will quickly die out."

Aside from the fact that others--including juvenile moderators--respond to them, rather than ignore them (or delete obvious trolling, in the case of the moderators), I agree with you on this one. The fact is that they still get enough attention to encourage sustained trolling, as is obvious from the fact that we have trolls who've dwelt here for long periods (even when I ignored them for months).

I don't claim knowledge of probability, but the sure logical certainty is that more educated, intelligent readers of the forum are sure to abandon any interest much quicker given a volume of completely garbage selective-responses and references to alien technology which certainly has no place on a politics forum. That moderators respond as if there's any legitimate content in talk of alien technology held hostage by the wealthy is just sad and certainly doesn't encourage a positive trend for the forum, whatever the chances that it has negatively impacted X number of potential participants.

As I said, they appear to get enough encouragement anyway. I don't discourage them with ad-hominem attacks and name-calling in place of arguments, I argue the crap out of their nonsense and occasionally, allegedly, am slightly insensitive.

"One of the posters on these fora has quite nicely and effectively used this art of ignoring, with perhaps only one persistant "troll" as you call them, still continuesly posting in response to him: perhaps this instance could be used as an example."

Perhaps. I'm sure it's the mature thing to do. But maturity is not required, nor can it be moderated (examples abound!). It's for the good of the forum. Somebody's got to do it. And it's always accomplished with content, not ad-hominem attacks in place of logical arguments and reasonable questions.

"Fourthly, I would like to adress how you think that you are allowed to use fallacies, because your opponent uses them. "

I'm pretty sure I addressed the crap out of this one by now. Are you seriously claiming I don't fill my posts with arguments in response to what people say? Are you seriously claiming that my supposed occasional insensitive comments are given in place of arguments? That's just silly.

I never claimed others' use of fallacious justified me doing the same. I simply point out when they do it. Sometimes, allegedly, it's not the most sensitive way that I do it. This does not equate with me using ad-hominem attacks. Remember your definition you posted? Its very important here. tongue I base no arguments or claims on supposedly insensitive remarks. I fill my posts with actual discussion of content. These supposedly insensitive remarks are a tiny portion of my posts. Ignoring this fact is just ridiculously fallacious. tongue

1,086

(103 replies, posted in Politics)

What alternative marriage rights?

What's marriage based on? Creating the next generation in the most productive way we know to create functional, balanced, productive human beings? That'd be heterosexual couples having kids. That wouldn't include "alternative" marriage. By this understanding, "alternative" marriage wouldn't be marriage at all. It doesn't serve the same function in society.

You_Fool,

As someone who has literally never attempted to discuss or debate anything with me, I have to question where this self-righteous judgement comes from.

You can't be offended that I don't discuss/debate with you, because you've clearly never had any interest in or made any attempt to do that.

And your ability to judge discussion/debate ability is called to question by the fact that you've never done it, so far as we can tell.

These vague indictments are easy to make in abstract terms. But when faced with actual arguments, people making these vague indictments tend to ignore most of them and get upset when they're chided for trolling.

When you just selectively respond to irrelevant details and ignore main arguments, you're trolling. You're just wasting people's time, as if you think you're discussing/debating anything, while not actually interested in responding to subject matter you find difficult.

I respond at-length to things I disagree with. (evidence above!) You know exactly what I disagree with and why. You know which points I concede and you have my explanations of why those points do not change my position. Depending on the structure of OPs and debate in general, this can be more succinct with less quotations and more structured, in depth-responses, or the drawn-out train of responses above.

I always make myself clear. If something is unclear, I clear it up. Agree or disagree, I'll talk about what you post, not cry about the way you posted it and how it hurt my fragile ego. This is out of respect to you and my self-respect. I don't hide from things that give me trouble, I concede points, question points, debate the importance of those points, and argue against them. I don't ignore them. That would be disrespectful.

I don't troll you. I don't call upon aliens to waste all of our time with insane ranting. Even if the language gets a little less than pretty, referencing "commies" doesn't exactly shut down discussion. Anyone is free to shrug it off, disagree, berate me, or whatever. But I always include very clear content with my mildly insensitive language (big deal). Responses tend to focus on the mildly insensitive language (big deal), completely ignoring content. That's a problem with trolling or just stupidity, not mildly insensitive language (big deal).

Crying about name-calling because someone referred to you as a "liberal" or a "conservative" or some such nonsense while refusing to discuss/debate any substance whatsoever is a much bigger problem around here than-name calling.

"Calling people a 'troll' or 'commie' is insulting."

The fact that we have trolls is insulting.

Calling communists "commies" may not be their favorite thing in the world, but it's not particularly derogative. It's generally said in jest when such beliefs are not the focal point of a topic and time isn't going to be spent mocking them.

It's not intended to be flattering, but, at the same time, it's not an accusation of ignorance of stupidity either. It's just a slang word for people who hold their beliefs. Its use, with adequate explanation, does not shut down discussion in any way.

Crying about it while ignoring the more-than-adequate explanation that comes along with it, however, has been known to shut down discussion every time.

"Surely evidence-based discourse is what is needed?"

A lot of the evidence in philosophical discourse is logic/philosophy or references to "the greats" in logic/philosophy. The problem which frequently presents itself here is an inability on many posters' parts to even form or offer an argument, let alone a rational one, let alone one which might possibly be valid.

This is what results in the crying and ultra-selective responses I will discuss below. This is the core of the problem. Everyone "being nice" to everyone isn't a solution when people are trolling and otherwise uninterested in discourse. **When someone always responds ultra-selectively, never responds to core arguments, and never responds to requests for clarification or more information, that in-and-of-itself is insulting and disrespectful.** And it's not just insulting/disrespectful to whomever else is engaged in so-called discourse, but to everyone who might make the poor decision to read the garbage frequently posted to this forum.

People often complain that having their illogical, no-thought-given garbage fallacious posts torn apart is mean. It wasn't flattering so it must be ad-hominem to explain why it's off-topic, misses key points, and illogical anyway. **What these people continually ignore is that not calling out bad form (or, usually, a complete lack of any) is disrespectful to readers and possible responders. The people who aren't aware of this are generally the ones posting the spam/trolling content which insults everyone here because, presumably, they don't know better how to actually discuss and debate topics of contention.**

"Ad-hominem's are not only insulting, they are one of the biggest fallacies one can make during a debate: they offer nothing of meaning to the argument, and only work to destroy whatever discussion is going on."

And people should stop doing that. It's obvious, irrational, juvenile, and makes no point.

But so should juvenile, irrational people should stop pretending that anything that upsets them is an ad-hominem attack while they ignore all of the arguments and explanations that go with it.

If you get upset that someone brushes off your views as "communist" but refuse to correct them in any way for months, face it: Your views are, as far as anyone knows, communist. And you're the problem.

This is a politics forum. Everyone posting who wants validation without thought is begging (and going) to be disappointed. Frequently. People constantly ignore arguments against them and ramble about red-herrings. It's dumb. It's boring. It's embarrassing.

Not critiquing such juvenile practices just makes the forum worse for everyone, even if they don't know it and would love some meaningless validation of their beliefs. Critiquing such juvenile practices isn't inherently ad-hominem attacks, it's necessary if this forum isn't to be totally dominated by trolls and elementary school students with inflated egos who couldn't make a half rational argument to save their lives.

"You can point out that someone is wrong without calling that person "ignorant""

When a troll repeatedly talks about topics that they demonstrate absolutely no knowledge of (and this is pointed out very clearly), it's not worth the time to save a log of all such demonstrations. The term "ignorant" covers the topic and why it's not being investigated further. This is more respectful (to readers) than to simply ignore inane rambling without explanation.

It's not the ideal, but trolls and completely irrational children (let's hope they're children) crap all over forums if they run amok. If you're arguing that this forum should be a completely embarrassing garbage bin, I guess I can respect that argument. But let's be clear: That is the alternative to never calling someone out on trolling or otherwise demonstrating absolutely no interest in discussing or debating anything, ever.

A bunch of selective responses never engaging the heart of the topics at hand isn't a discussion and doesn't make for a discussion forum. It's a boring, awkward, dysfunctional circle-jerk of half-wits seeking meaningless intellectual validation. It's boring. It's embarrassing. Maybe it's why this forum is here and some people post to it. But it shouldn't be.

"or describing that person as belonging to a political philosophy that one may or may not prescribe to or fit into with one's ideas"

And yet listing an appropriate term is much, much more convenient for both the writer and readers than listing off five or more ideas which all fit well under the term.

When the term fits, it's succinct, rational, and respectful (of everyone) to use it. Go go into some ultra-vague list about authoritarian power without checks and redistribution of income/wealth every time you simply wanted to refer to communist ideas would be dumb. Yeah, I said it.

No one claiming to have their ideas being misrepresented has ever had any trouble correcting the record. The only people who have complained have never even tried.

We're all adults here. Or hopefully moderately intelligent children, if interested in reading a "Politics" forum (such as it may be). Asking for linguistic acrobatics because some weirdo gets offended at the English language is neither sensible nor respectful to everybody else here.

"especially if doing so is only to undermine discussion and make the opponent stop discussing."

That's different. Of course I agree. But insofar as the people raging like babies (ohnoes he was honest! ad-hominem! ignore his LENGTHY explanation as if he didn't take the time to make himself VERY clear!) about being mislabeled are the people refusing to correct the supposed errors or discuss anything, it doesn't appear to be the problem here. Claims of ad-hominem attacks (which certainly do happen) on this forum are more often an attempt to shut down discussions posters aren't interested in having/finishing than they are a response to actual ad-hominem attacks. Context matters.

"There is no place for ad-hominems and other fallacies in a decent debate, and I think mods and forum mods alike should take a zero tolerance standpoint against ad-hominems at the very least"

And bear in mind that trolling rarely includes ad-hominem attacks. Trolls avoid being so obvious.

Irrational people who resent having their "arguments" obliterated often turn to trolling after initially appearing not to.  It embarrasses and infuriates them, so they respond by trolling--anything to change the topic, abandon the topic, and attack whoever upset them. This never fails to go unnoticed around here.

Our moderators can't even spot a troll when it's advocating structuring society around alien technology that it's sure humanity has. You're asking for more than they can possibly deliver.

Nobody's debated the philosophical purity of anyone's version of communism around here. Someone's just made it clear they enjoy trolling and, to this end, will never be more specific than extremely vague communist platitudes. And, to the end of trolling, has cried about being asked to be more specific and being asked to account for contradicting himself repeatedly.

There's a lot more disrespect around than just ad-hominem attacks. "Talking nice" won't remove any of it. Often, that encourages it. Trolls like the attention. Who knew.

1,089

(56 replies, posted in Politics)

GM doesn't have to sell cars to be a business. That's the problem. They're still operating with billions of tax dollars invested and massive subsidies for hybrids and the useless waste that is the Volt.

The point made about the advertising is that they're paying a ridiculous rate for it, much more than other buyers were. Government money was followed with inept leadership and bad decisions. What a shock.

There's often no level of debate at all. tongue

Einstein, only 2 of those terms are insults ("Righttard"--Do people actually say that?!--and "wingnut.") and one (Right Wing) can be a bit vague.

Communists, socialists, fascists, and trolls are all real things. People often argue in favor of their respective "isms." There's nothing insulting, for instance, in arguing against fascism when a socialist argues for it as necessary to achieve global economic justice.

These words represent real ideas. Discussion of these ideas is the purpose of the forum. When they fit, there's nothing wrong with using descriptors to refer to ideas or the posters who have posted them.

If one wants to argue that an authoritarian regime should control all income and wealth in the name of fairness/equality/justice, one is arguing for fascism and communism. Sometimes descriptors are just accurate. It's not insulting such an individual to refer to obvious objections to fascism and communism: They're appropriate to the argument that person is making, as are the words "fascist" and "communist" to describe his/her proposals.

When someone has a problem with simple descriptors like these, their problem is either with the accuracy of the person using the descriptors or the English language.

If their problem is with the English language, the solution is professional psychological help which certainly won't be found here.

If their problem is with the accuracy of the person using the descriptor, this is a forum. They're free and encouraged to correct the inaccuracy. If the hypothetical supposed fascist/communist above didn't actually ascribe to those beliefs, they'd have an easy time saying "No, I don't support those things. This is what I support..."

I certainly agree that "name-calling" is undesirable and unproductive. But such name-calling can be called-out and corrected. If someone objects to simple descriptors yet fails/refuses to correct alleged inaccuracies, they're either trolling or they have a psychological problem with the English language. ==>_Neither of these cases is a matter of insults._<==

When someone claims to be certain that aliens have given the wealthy of planet Earth self-replicating robot technology capable of performing 100% of labor for mankind, and argues that we should structure society in a fascist way around equal distribution of fictional robot-produced goods, face it: They're trolling hardcore.

I'd rather post to a forum that's a little mean to obvious trolling by obvious trolls than rewards them with attention. The position that such robots exist is 100% faith with 0% evidence. Calling it ignorant is not an insult to the troll who posted it, it's an obvious rebuttal of the obvious trolling which should not be encouraged.

It doesn't matter if language is directed at a person or trolling irrational ranting. If a childish troll cries and a juvenile and uneducated moderator feels the need for action, you will be edited and warned!

Because heaven forbid if you describe the post of someone who has literally no idea what they're talking about as "ignorant" and explain what they clearly have no understanding of. Everyone is special! All trolling is valid! Just STFU if you disagree (or they don't make any sense), don't explain why! This ain't no discussion forum!

Because heaven forbid if you describe someone as clearly subscribing to every single belief of communism as a "communist." They might be unable to differentiate their beliefs from those of communists in any way but still protest the term! We ought to be less accurate and succinct in our language to be nice to trolls with psychological disorders! Irrational trolls are important parts of any community.

I wouldn't bother trying to have this conversation. The moderators aren't up to the task, even with the low level of activity on this forum. They can't identify trolling any better than they can differentiate between ripping someone's posts apart and personally attacking them.

1,092

(5 replies, posted in Politics)

That doesn't make them non-fundamentalist. And the views you described are not universal for the organization.

The study was on subconscious dilation as a result of arousal, not dilation as a matter of focusing vision.

1,094

(103 replies, posted in Politics)

I don't buy into this morality argument against marriage. If you wanna be psychologically disordered, it's your life. Be happy. Whatever.

And I don't buy into government being involved in marriage to begin with. If taxes are SO high that married couples need breaks, then taxes are way too high. Getting government involved and making the whole process of taxation more complicated and costly is no solution.

But if you love behemoth government, consider one major difference between heterosexual and homosexual marriage: The creation of families, the fundamental building block of civilization. Heterosexual couples are, by form, capable of creating families. Homosexual couples are not.

Heterosexual marriages serve a vitally important function that homosexual unions, by any name, simply do not. Nature's such a bigot! I NO RITE!

And hey, hypocrites supporting gay marriage but not polygamous marriage, what's the basis for this hypocrisy? Polygamous marriage still serves the function of creating children and stable homes for those children--something which homosexual unions do not. Why the hypocrisy? A moral judgement, because polygamists are different from you? Bigots.

You have absolutely no basis for your claim that homelessness (what homelessness? the vast majority of American people have homes) caused the crisis, therefore basing conclusions on this presumption is idiotic.

1,096

(56 replies, posted in Politics)

How's the weather in your fictional universe where you regress tens of thousands of years to forsake trade, make your own clothes, crap in holes in the ground, make up costs of things many times more expensive, and subject your family to sub-poverty standards of living?

1,097

(56 replies, posted in Politics)

It's funny because xeno would support such government action to protect property values if he understood them.

1,098

(56 replies, posted in Politics)

"35 mile range on electric only - good enough for me (probably could pick up a used f150 for, what 5 grand)?"

35 is under ideal conditions, "estimated" ideal. Ie, less than 20 miles. Ever test driven an electric vehicle? I've test driven the Volt. It has an estimated range of 35 miles on electric. I watched it not last 20.

If you pick up a used F150 for 5 grand it's either old as Moses--and, thus, in poor shape--or in poor shape.

I hate to ask this again, but do you have any clue what you're talking about? It seems not, begging the question of why you post such baseless conjecture which common sense and the tiniest bit of life experience render laughable.

"wonder how much the conversion would cost - maybe another 5?"

Have you ever worked on an automobile? Okay, silly question. Let me just inform you that the labor and necessary parts for a conversion (motor, battery, adjustments [regular 150s do not leave space for all this crap]) are easily going to be over $5,000.

"Now for the camper and solar-array / wind generator."

Yeah, because living in a camper is really desirable. Have you ever spent much time in one? Rather cramped. Not desirable living conditions.

"Maybe another 5 grand?"

For a "camper" capable of living in (for more than a few days) and a "solar-array / wind generator" capable of supplying all desired electricity? LULZ. You have to be kidding.

"A fair-sized lot of land out in the sticks off-grid (within 35kms of a ski hill, hopefully): maybe, what, 40k?  Easy..."

I'm sure you can find a completely undesirable plot of land for that amount or less. But, then, that's a completely undesirable piece of land. Why are you talking about it like anyone would want it?

"Cost to build a little cabin on a lake shore in the woods there: do it myself, since I can live in the camper while I do it.  Could build a nice-enough place for maybe 15k."

You obviously don't have the knowledge or skills to produce such a home, which is representative of the general problem we have with your whole post.

You have literally absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Not one single part of your break-down made any sense of had remotely accurate numbers or presumptions.

Accept the fact that you have no idea what you're talking about. Learn and grow as a human being. All this crap you're posting is completely nonsensical--it's ignorant and factually wrong in every detail.

Everyone knows dilithium crystals are the wave of the future. Get with the times.

1,099

(11 replies, posted in Politics)

It's only logical. It's too sophisticated for the president to likely understand.

1,100

(56 replies, posted in Politics)

Even under ideal conditions they're incapable of getting the average person to and from work, let alone anywhere else, on electric. And company vehicles? Not even close.

The added weight of the motor and battery just decreases gas mileage and would result in a net loss of money and a net increase in CO2 emissions for the vast majority of drivers.

The only reason anyone uses them is because they want to make an ignorant political statement, and they either barely drive anywhere--and short distances when they do--or they're just too dumb to understand that they're wasting money and producing more CO2 pushing a worthless electric motor and battery around everywhere. And they're going to have a mega toxic battery to throw out in a short time.