Topic: Flat Tax and Fair Tax

A person inquired about this, and I suppose I can respond to educate.


A Flat Tax would be a sales tax or income tax based taxation policy. It would apply evenly to all regardless of income level.

The FAIR Tax would be a sales tax fixed at a certain percentage where everyone in the United States was cut a check for a nominal amount, such as $4000 in cash per year.


The Flat Tax would stimulate the economy via simplicity and fairness. For instance there is a presumption that every millionaire and billionaire has a vault like Scrooge McDuck where their money sits doing nothing for the economy, nothing for anyone except as padding for the rich.

This presumption is so very wrong. What the Millionaires and Billionaires have is something totally different.



But first I need to explain wealth versus cash.



Wealth is the total sum value of all property you own. If you have a car you have 'wealth'. If you have a laptop you have wealth. If you own a house you have wealth. An IRA, 401k, Anuity, and so forth are also considered wealth until you get cash in hand. Art is wealth.


Cash is actual legal tender that can be liquidated to purchase something.




The Millionaires and Billionaires have wealth as a vast majority of their assets. Their yacht, their Rolls Royce, their Mansion is all wealth. So is much of their stocks, bonds, and more.  Though again until they are cashed.


Income pays their bills just the same. If they have excess they dont build a vault and jump in the coins they collect. They reinvest it into new money making ventures or into new wealth.


A millionaire orders a painting. This painting pays a local artist. The millionaire gains wealth but loses cash. A billionaire invests into the next Google, Ford, or Apple. He gains wealth and the new company gains cash.


That wealth can be changed into cash with effort is not withstanding. There is not enough cash in the world to purchase all the businesses of the world. The wealthy, a bad name in some regions, produce jobs via spending of cash and creating wealth. If they are truly successful then they make much more wealth than their cash cost them, or cash and wealth than their cash cost them.


An example of a very successful company is Apple Computers. Their products are worth more than the labor used to create them, and the company itself is worth more than small sum as well.


Apples CEO does not have a tower filled with gold coins. Instead he has investments in Apple and other companies, a house (or ten, who cares), some cars, some clothes, some equipment, and so forth. Yet those assets did not magically appear and his cash disappear to a fairy land. Instead he paid for items which is in a sense paying for the labor to create the items, market the items and other such labor type activities, and some profit to those who made it as well. He pays his barber, he pays his tailor, he pays his other employees... They dont work for free.


And then some people try to say they dont deserve the money, that they cannot possibly have earned it. But I ask this question to those. Can Steve Jobs not have earned his salary? He turned Apple around from a fading 2nd rate company to one of the leading tech companies across all the different spectrums. He has earned the investors in his company (the holders of stock) many many more dollars, even after his share, than they would have earned without him.

Without Steve Jobs there would be no IMac, no IPod, no IPad, and no IPhone. Without Steve Jobs we would all have less total options. Has he "Earned" his billions?




Yes some just sit and do almost nothing, with a family name to help them along. The Heinz family is an example of this. How has Teresa Heinz helped increase the value of her company for stockholders? This is where supposedly the Stock Market would reflect such and punish her. Oh wait... it has. Apple stocks are worth ever so more than any Heinz stock ever would be.




So the presumption of a flat tax is that millionaires and billionaires always invest money or spend it, and that most of them could not open a check book and write a million dollar check on the spot.... because most of their value at any time is in wealth.


Their spending and investing provides for jobs. That they have to fight to maintain their spot in the market (Commodore computers anyone?) means that they can lose wealth if they stop spending and investing. Therefore giving them more of their cash means they provide more jobs.




A Fair tax would still do the same, but also give a little something to everyone that dramatically helps the poor but in effect does nothing for the rich.












To whit I will also provide that a very unfair taxation scheme (read one where they cannot possibly profit) makes millionaires and billionaires hold onto assets and cash and stop creating new ventures and jobs. After all if there will be no profit, if there can be no gain, then no one else can possibly grow to compete with them, and they need not try hard to innovate or such, but can instead coast.


A difficult regulatory environment, and a run amok lawsuit happy nation means more companies need to keep more cash on hand to cover issues that may come up. Obama wants to be "Green" which means he may pass via the EPA a new standard which requires them to replace all AC units in their businesses in less than a year. This takes a LOT of cash to do so. So would requiring wiring every building with firewire and increasing the capacity of the Internet in less than a year.

That sort of crap costs so much money that companies, seeing a big spender, a guy who makes new standards start almost immediately, and with painful costs to those standards, a guy who seeks innovative ways to make CEO's and their companies squirm.... makes them save up as much cash as they can to cover all eventualities.




This is why we are in a world wide slump, and a National Depression. These companies must be ready to jump when he says so, and jump in a hard fiscal manner. This impedes them from growing, competing, or hiring.






An example of such tampering is the Fairness Doctrine. If every radio station were to have to hire a Liberal (but not NPR hire a conservative mind you) then there would be competition for better liberals who can replace stars who held the time before (please if they could provide the audience then they would still be on the air, so this is not an easy thing). This means they need to have cash on hand for hiring such liberals, as well as cash on hand to cover potential losses for a while until they can stabilize themselves.

This means radio stations around the nation let go a number of DJ's they saw as useful, but not necessary. Obama's own radicalism cost hundreds of radio DJ's their jobs just with a threat without full follow through.







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TL;DR

Your a puppet and always will be a slave to your masters. Read it, understand it. My heart and soul especially went into the last half. a better explanation of why your policies self destruct there cannot be from almost anyone in this world. READ IT!

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
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Re: Flat Tax and Fair Tax

Firstly, trickle-down economics do not work, no where where large tax cuts to the rich has the society come off better. A progressive income tax is still a fair way of distributing the cost of society across all of society, so those who can pay more are asked too, whilst those who cannot are not asked too.

Secondary you seem to have confused income with cash reserves, if a person did have a scrouge McDuck type vault, they would actually pay $0 on said cash, since it isn't in a bank it is not generating interest, and it is not an income cause they already have it, thus using any reasoning where you are comparing to a vault of money is incorrect.

Thirdly you little speech about wealth v cash is correct, as i said above, that has nothing to do with income, which is what is taxed. Also a company's income is not the same as an indivudual's income, so the Steve Jobs bit about him creating jobs through spending his money is incorrect. He creates a few jobs with his money (such as his barber, who may or not be some over-priced stylist. If not then he isn't creating a lot of 'cash' in the barber's life, any more than any other person.) Apple does create more jobs with Apple's money, which is not the same thing as Steve Jobs' money (no matter what Steve Jobs might think.) Steve Jobs may have managed Apple well to ensure that Apple has lots of income to pay more people, however this pay is deducted from their income before they pay tax, so it actually has no bearing on how apple creates jobs anyway. This is also why trickle-down economics do not work, income tax levels have little bearing on income levels of companies who actually create the jobs, since they pay all that before tax. It does have some bearing on how careing the directors might be, because the bit left over after tax is where they get their income from, and other profits will be ised to re-invest in the company, however a forward thinking company with good directors will be able to do this anyway, esp with a good acountant and a good knowledge of tax law, as capital investment is also tax deductible (at least in NZ.)

So whilst trickle down doesn't work, and income based progressive tax structure does distribute the costs of society in a fair way, that doesn't mean there is no benefit from the so called 'fair tax' (which isn't really, it is more of an 'equal tax'.) You were not very clear, but my understanding is that all of your post was to defend the 'fair tax' and prove it was effective.  My understanding of the 'fair tax' is that with a few tweaks it would be indeed fair, and possible more equal.

First, get rid of rebates, they sound more like an excuse for brueucrats than actual effective tax (which is strange given the tax's source.)
Second have a 2 tier income tax structure, 0% up to a set amount (ideal would be the poverty line, but depends a bit on affordability) lets say $10,000 annual income. Above $10,000 set at a flat rate, say 20%. Note in this way the 'fair tax' is as equal as a 'flat tax.' $10,000 would also be your welfare payments in this example.
Thirdly have capital gains tax, set at a flat rate, say 10%. Whilst this is anti-buisness in a way, it is not huge and will generate needed income, and it not that great a limit on capital investment, esp since this will mean more effort is put into using capital as opposed to increasing the price of capital.
Fourthly a progressive sales tax, from 0% for essentials (i.e. meat, fresh fruit and veges) 10% for basics & 20% for luxury items (cars, boats, art, etc...)

This changes the burden of the costs of society from the income of a tax payer, to his spending habits, and allows the greatest burden to fall on those who are chosing to live exgravently.


As for regulation adding extra costs onto buisnesses, it is poor government which drops such costs on an economy unexpectedly, but a poor buisness which does not react when forewarned correctly.  Most leglislation which increases a buisnesses costs, are generally for a good reason, and unless it is a drastic measure to curb unwanted activity normally any such law will not come into effect immediatly and will be forewarned as well, so the smart buisness can spread such a cost over several years, also reducing it's taxable income, to ensure it isn't hit with a one off cost. Also I have found that most 'green' initives a company could take actually save the compnay money, such as energy efficient lighting and appliances.



I am not familar with the 'fairness doctrine' and radio DJ's so I will not comment, but one knows there is another side to this story...

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: Flat Tax and Fair Tax

too many hard enters

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Re: Flat Tax and Fair Tax

@kingsnine

There is such a thing as property tax, but I don't believe it is used at the federal level.  I dunno why.  tongue

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