276 Reply by SOL (edited by SOL 08-Jan-2010 09:57:53)

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Re: Tell us why we don't believe in God

Yes, and science is based on empiricalism, relegion is not.

In your example with brain activity: there were 2 statements

1) a person has higher brain activity then usual
2) the persons says he is seeing god(through his eyes)

What makes 1) empirical is that it doesn't only rely on the trustworthyness of the speaker. 2) does. The difference is in what the statement is based on.

If a million people just say they experienced God, then it's a million statements based on the thurstworthyness of the speaker. In the example of brain activity, the sense used for observation is vision. The person who's brain is being measured appears to be the only one who is seeing god(you have to take his word for it).  Everyone else who has the abiliy to see can check whether or not the brain activity is up(you don't have to trust the person who said it, you can see for yourself if you have the ability to see).

Untill this day, there have only been religious statements where you have to rely on the trustworthyness of the speaker. There hasn't been a empirical statement where you could check whether or not what the person is telling you is correct.

I agree that when i said " for everyone"(you were right not to take my word for it ) , i was incorrect. It's been a year since i saw those slides, the human memory makes mistakes sometimes. But i was right that those statements were not empirical.

There is also no proof that the universe can be explained with thourgh observation only.

Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato

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Re: Tell us why we don't believe in God

you dont have to trust anyone, you do an experiment and you find out if you sense God. millions of people have repeated this experiment and found that they have sensed God...

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278 Reply by SOL (edited by SOL 08-Jan-2010 10:34:37)

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Re: Tell us why we don't believe in God

Then why is that people with the same sense(vision, hearing, smell, taste or touch), that are put in the same conditions seem to get a different outcome?

That either means your experiment is not reliable, or that some people are lying(consciously or subconciously). And again, they say they sensed god. If a person with the same senses(one of the 5) gets a different outcome that proves that either your expirement is not reliable , or that your theory is incorrect, or ..... That one person that gets a different outcome has to rely on the trustworthyness of those who got the same outcome.*

(I'm not saying it excludes the possibilty that they actually saw God)


* i'm also not saying that if an experiment get the same outcome over and over, you can be absolutly(100%) certain that your theory is correct. One counterexample is enough to prove some thing wrong. An example doesn't prove you are right.(i think this is Popper"s falsification theory is trying to say)

Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato

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Re: Tell us why we don't believe in God

> avogadro wrote:

> you dont have to trust anyone, you do an experiment and you find out if you sense God. millions of people have repeated this experiment and found that they have sensed God...>

Or they said they sensed God. It's very easy to dismiss their account as a hallucination or false attribution. On the latter, many people say that they feel a presence and they call it God. That presence could just as easily be Zeus, or Zeus who says he's God, or their mind playing tricks on them.

If I said I saw Sherry, that doesn't mean I saw her. I saw a facial pattern and it was my interpretation that the face I saw was Sherry.

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280 Reply by Justinian I (edited by Justinian I 08-Jan-2010 10:46:29)

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Re: Tell us why we don't believe in God

> SOL wrote:

> Then why is that people with the same sense(vision, hearing, smell, taste or touch), that are put in the same conditions seem to get a different outcome?>

Factors like interpretation and attention. That said, not everyone senses the same. Some people are color blind, for example. But that does not demote the power of the empirical method in any way.

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281 Reply by SOL (edited by SOL 08-Jan-2010 10:57:48)

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Re: Tell us why we don't believe in God

The question was meant to let avo think about it, as an introduction to what i was trying to say tongue ... still an important remark though

Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato

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Re: Tell us why we don't believe in God

> SOL wrote:

> Then why is that people with the same sense(vision, hearing, smell, taste or touch), that are put in the same conditions seem to get a different outcome?


because its about sensing a living being. you can go to a forest and do the same thing multiple times, that doesnt mean you're going to see bears either every time or none of the time. empirical proof of bears is multiple people going to the forests and seeing bears, not 100% of the people looking into the forest seeing bears...

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Re: Tell us why we don't believe in God

> Justinian I wrote:

> > avogadro wrote:

> you dont have to trust anyone, you do an experiment and you find out if you sense God. millions of people have repeated this experiment and found that they have sensed God...>

Or they said they sensed God. It's very easy to dismiss their account as a hallucination or false attribution. On the latter, many people say that they feel a presence and they call it God. That presence could just as easily be Zeus, or Zeus who says he's God, or their mind playing tricks on them.

If I said I saw Sherry, that doesn't mean I saw her. I saw a facial pattern and it was my interpretation that the face I saw was Sherry.


you can dismiss anyone's account of anything as a hallucination or fale attribution inwhich case nothing can be empirical proven...

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284 Reply by SOL (edited by SOL 08-Jan-2010 13:01:33)

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Re: Tell us why we don't believe in God

> avogadro wrote:

> > SOL wrote:

> Then why is that people with the same sense(vision, hearing, smell, taste or touch), that are put in the same conditions seem to get a different outcome?


because its about sensing a living being. you can go to a forest and do the same thing multiple times, that doesnt mean you're going to see bears either every time or none of the time. empirical proof of bears is multiple people going to the forests and seeing bears, not 100% of the people looking into the forest seeing bears...


<>
Then it means your theory that "you will see a bear everytime you go to a forrest"(*) is incorrect. it doesn't mean it is impossible to see a bear in the forest (that the bear doesn't not exist). That would mean when i say "Everytime i go to a forest i see a bear" has a possibility of being proven wrong thorgh verification with one of our 5 senses. That statement can be proven wrong when some else (with the ability to see) does the same experiment. He is able to verify whether or not the statement true. He doesn't have to take the word of the person who said " everytime you enter a forest, you will see a bear".


"sensing a living being" ? not everyone(with the same sense that was originally used) has been able to sense(with one of the 5 senses) God, the people who didn't sense him have to take the word of the people who have sensed him.  (Again, that is not enough to disprove the existence of God either.)

(*) I assume you meant something like that with your example, if you didn't please explain your example some more


---------

Your reply to what justinian said-> "you can dismiss anyone's account of anything as a hallucination or fale attribution inwhich case nothing can be empirical proven..."

It is possible that we are all hallucinating or whatever. What makes it empirical is that we have THE POSSIBILITY TO CHECK whether we have the same hallucination.

Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato

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Re: Tell us why we don't believe in God

> avogadro wrote:

> "  Pray-tell, what is the reason?"
there isnt a single reason... the quote you gave was simply pointing out that the difference between an atheists and  christians is not "intelligence, IQ, education, or ability to think for yourself" <


Bullshit! Here is the original quote:

> Lord Soccer wrote:
> do people really need a religion to tell u what to believe, can u not think for urself?
i find it hard to believe that God created everything, he is just part of a religion that was made up, like many other religions out there that were made up, many have their own gods, maybe they created everything, i think not.

many of the greatest minds in history were religious people; while you may not beleive in a god, dont delude yourself into believing that the reason you dont beleive in a god is a result of your intelligence, IQ, education, or ability to think for yourself...


Goddbye, coward.

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

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Re: Tell us why we don't believe in God

what if God was actually a figment of my imagination, and that imagination were a figment of imagination and the reality around me was a figment of imagination. Then technically, not only would God not exist, but I wouldn't and neither would this computer. Or forum. Yay Kant! It's a shame I had to kill you hmm

Insane Lemming of Drama Queens and Other Hyperbolical People

1431 ftw

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Re: Tell us why we don't believe in God

> &#9773; Fokker wrote:

> > avogadro wrote:

> "  Pray-tell, what is the reason?"
there isnt a single reason... the quote you gave was simply pointing out that the difference between an atheists and  christians is not "intelligence, IQ, education, or ability to think for yourself" <


Bullshit! Here is the original quote:

> Lord Soccer wrote:
> do people really need a religion to tell u what to believe, can u not think for urself?
i find it hard to believe that God created everything, he is just part of a religion that was made up, like many other religions out there that were made up, many have their own gods, maybe they created everything, i think not.

many of the greatest minds in history were religious people; while you may not beleive in a god, dont delude yourself into believing that the reason you dont beleive in a god is a result of your intelligence, IQ, education, or ability to think for yourself...


Goddbye, coward.



when lord soccer wrote "do people really need a religion to tell u what to beleive, can u not think for urself"   was he not infering that religious people cannot think for themselves? is not the reason why there are people that dont think for themeselves usually either intelligence, IQ, or education? yeah, thats what i thought, it is... so yes, i was doing exactly what i was claiming to be doing; thanks for digging up the quote for me...

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Re: Tell us why we don't believe in God

well.. looks like i'm gonna have to be an asshole(its fun).....

1.  stupid people exist, god doesn't.
2.  smart people exist too, they created god
3.  religion exists to control peoples' actions
4.  peoples actions are governed by fear
5.  fear is generated by god
6.  god must exist to keep humanity safe.
7.  if god was to be proven to be false, humanity would relapse.
8.  smart people would create new religion.

therfore, as much as i believe god does not exist, i believe he is nessessary for the overall safety of our species, we are not animals, we are intelligent beings that need boundries.

I dont smoke cigarettes because i like them.  I smoke because it hides the smell of marijuana thats seeping into the hallway atm.

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Re: Tell us why we don't believe in God

and ehawk proves how little he knows of the nature of most religions...

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Re: Tell us why we don't believe in God

more like me prooving my sceptisism and contempment for the human race....

besides, its mainly about WHY humans in general need religion.  individual people develop thier own reaasoning, but overall, religion is exactly as marx said... "opiate for the masses"

oh and avo, you can argue with me all you want, but you have to admit the utter distruction of the human race, if us atheists actually found proof that god doen't exist.

truthfully if i had the evidence to proove that god doesn't exist, i would sit on it.  humans simply cant handle the knowledge of a god-less universe.  so, yes, IQ is a definately a factor when it comes to not believing

I dont smoke cigarettes because i like them.  I smoke because it hides the smell of marijuana thats seeping into the hallway atm.

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Re: Tell us why we don't believe in God

most religions dont instill fear...

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Re: Tell us why we don't believe in God

oh, thats what you meant. lol

the "fear" i'm relating to religion is that religions provide satisfaction from the most basic fear.  in the absense of god, fear of death is much more frightening.  my word were a little vague, my fault.

I dont smoke cigarettes because i like them.  I smoke because it hides the smell of marijuana thats seeping into the hallway atm.

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Re: Tell us why we don't believe in God

alot of religions dont even beleive in life after death... so how would they make the fear of death less frightening?

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Re: Tell us why we don't believe in God

now, your nit picking.

there is no possable way, anyone can ever make ANY statement to include ALL religions.  so why do you expect me to?

BTW, avo wrote:
"alot of religions dont even beleive in life after death"

name some.  "alot" my ass.  see i can nit-pick too smile
__________
now, EVERYONE has a fear of death in some way or another, religion simply provides a conduit for people to overcome(or at least ignore) the grim fact of life.  many people also fear death not for thier own life, but for their children/loved ones.  It is my opinion that religion(no matter what practice) is a coping mechanism for people in the wake of harsh realities.

I dont smoke cigarettes because i like them.  I smoke because it hides the smell of marijuana thats seeping into the hallway atm.

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Re: Tell us why we don't believe in God

Religions also have a common theme of providing rules that are intended to be obeyed, with divine punishments or rewards for certain actions. That effectively causes fear.

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Re: Tell us why we don't believe in God

"5.  fear is generated by god"

arent you contradicting yourself? you said God creates fear and then you say religion is used to cope with fear.... which is it?

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Re: Tell us why we don't believe in God

> Justinian I wrote:

> Religions also have a common theme of providing rules that are intended to be obeyed, with divine punishments or rewards for certain actions. That effectively causes fear.


im not sure about every form of religion, but the largest sect of the largest religion, Catholicism doesnt.

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Re: Tell us why we don't believe in God

> Ehawk wrote:


BTW, avo wrote:
"alot of religions dont even beleive in life after death"

name some.  "alot" my ass.  see i can nit-pick too smile
__________


Aladura
Confucianism
Deism
Epicureanism
Falun Gong
Judaism (depending on sect)
Stoicism
Taoism
Unitarian Universalism

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Re: Tell us why we don't believe in God

okay maybe "life after death" was a bad choice of words.  instead i should say "insurance policy after life expiration"

also, yes you did catch that typo on number 5, its should be "religion is generated by fear"
_________
avo wrote:
"im not sure about every form of religion, but the largest sect of the largest religion, Catholicism doesnt."

you do realize the vatican is pounding the avatar movie for flirting witht he idea that nature can be worshipped instead of religion, right?.  just as most religions, the threat of another belief structure seems to be a major focus of defenses.  i think justinian has made a valid statment that most people dont publically realize.  religion has an egocentric mentality.

I dont smoke cigarettes because i like them.  I smoke because it hides the smell of marijuana thats seeping into the hallway atm.

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Re: Tell us why we don't believe in God

i was talking about divine punishment with what catholicism doesnt have....  Catholicism isnt if you dont follow these things, God will punish you. Its if you dont strive for these things, you wont truly be happy...

and im pretty sure none of the ones i listed have an insurance policy after life expiration either...

"well, religion is generated by fear" isnt right either. Religion like science is generated by man's desire to improve himself...

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