26 (edited by Blind Guardian 01-Jun-2009 16:04:16)

Re: George Tiller killed

>>Those babies were unwanted, thus not really anyone's friend.<<

They're obviously thought close enough to a friend for some to want to protect them.

I do not take for granted that there is a God. I'm on the fence concerning His existence myself. He hasn't Spoken to me or responded to my emails regarding this question. I'm still waiting to hear back about the answer to the Question.

>>but it doesn't justify the killing in any way<<

I was just explaining that to him, who believes that this man murdered countless human beings, killing this man was justified because he was going to continue to kill countless more human beings. To him it was like shooting a Nazi deathcamp executioner whose job it was to kill countless human beings in order to prevent them from killing more.

I completely agree and in no way whatsoever condone his actions. I believe they are likely motivated in large part by (in addition to his beliefs, which I do not judge, as I believe that holding [human] life sacred isn't such a bad thing) the apathy of authority and the voting public as well on an issue that he cared deeply about.

[begin optional rant]
I believe that we human beings are wretched things and, if there is a God, a Hell, or any sort of Justice whatsoever I'm confident that plenty of people deserve to burn, so while I would never choose to abort my own child (I know I know, you never know until you've been there--but I have these old things called values and a belief system based upon the natural order; and two human beings of opposite sexes coming together to beget another human being of their own flesh is kindof a sacred thing by that measure, not to be shat upon--so blow me. tongue) I am aware that people always have and always will do it anyway, so I'm not particularly concerned about 'aborting' children immediately and shortly after conception, before they have anything of a nervous system whatsoever. So if people want their right to kill their children before there's any possible way their children can have thoughts or feelings whatsoever, let them go on and do that. It's their decision and, I do have faith in this, anyone irresponsible enough to have an unwanted child will probably be Damned if there is such a thing anyway (not necessarily for killing a few cells, but I'm presuming a level of stupid here that leads to plenty of other actions). Let them have their hell and purchase a ticket to it too--live and let live, to each his own, AKA it's none of my damn business. After 9 months or nearly 9 months when a child is completely 'formed' and all parts are present, however, I've got a little of a problem with the "chop it up, poison it, use a hammer (China used/uses(?) this method when they run out of poison for the head), whatever" attitude. It's a living child that feels pain and will, without some method of killing it, grow and mature. I would like to see laws forbidding late-term abortion. Anyone who is not aware that they're pregnant and have the option of 'aborting' their child after a number of months but later decides they want their child killed after it has developed to a point where IT DOESN'T NEED THEM TO SURVIVE ANYWAY should probably be forced to have the child and then be shot in the head, on principle, IMHO. tongue
[/rant]

Those are some random thoughts--my position, if you will--on the topic of abortion and "abortion rights." I do not think they are unreasonable. I do not desire control over a woman's body or have some strange psychological problem that brings me to this position. I have no religious faith, so there's no "well God said!" contributing to my position. I think it's fairly reasonable. It's certainly open to discussion as to at what point (and why then) abortion should be allowed and when forbade. And the rant brings me to my point:  And yet I've never heard a position like mine (for instance, or anything else) desiring some reasonable safegaurds to prevent letting children be half born and killing them before they're entirely born because it's somehow alright to kill a child 6 inches in one direction from a woman's holiest of altars but totally wrong to murder an infant 6 inches in the other a few seconds later, with no psysiological change happening in the human being whose termination is in question. Most of us probably agree that SOME protection ought to be given to children after birth, and many believe that some protection ought to be given to children during and before birth. But often what we get is the bi-product of whichever political candidate who spent X money with X marketing tactic on X issues figures will get him re-elected. I'm disgusted by the way many parents (with the aid of doctors) dispose of their children at what stage of pregnancy. But I'm an asshole and I just don't care if they, or all of you tongue, die. But many people feel VERY strongly about this issue and don't resign themselves to my "screw off and die" position. For them it is a very serious issue that is being ignored by virtually every legislative body in the nation. Sometimes it isn't ignored, but that's usually in that their tax money is used to pay for poor people to kill their kids.

People argue that life is sacred from conception and that abortion should never be allowed. People argue that it's a woman's right to kill her offspring at any time, up to and including while it's already half birthed. But there's no public discussion of what our laws ought to allow (if anything) and/or what they ought to prevent (if anything). Candidates for legislative offices that make these laws do not discuss their views of the law and values and morality. What do we expect in a society where lawmakers give the go-ahead to unsupervised killing of infants during birth and a significant poriton of the population thinks it's wrong beyond all measure (horrific) what is being done?

There's no communication. This man found a way to get his point heard. I agree it was wrong, and the sad thing is that this won't give any attention to the matter other than for liberals to shout that this is another of the crazies the right produces and they need more protection for their right to kill their kids, and conservatives to shake their heads because another lunatic has snapped. The two sides not communicating just separate farther and farther from discussion. And a few years later it happens again.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: George Tiller killed

LOL Chris_Balsz. I busted out laughing.

Don't be offended everyone -- if I kill babies (add "at that stage" haters) you can laugh at a jokes about my murder over it too.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: George Tiller killed

"I was just explaining that to him, who believes that this man murdered countless human beings, killing this man was justified because he was going to continue to kill countless more human beings. To him it was like shooting a Nazi deathcamp executioner whose job it was to kill countless human beings in order to prevent them from killing more."

I know.

God: Behold ye angels, I have created the ass.. Throughout the ages to come men and women shall grab hold of these and shout my name...

29 (edited by Noir 01-Jun-2009 17:46:30)

Re: George Tiller killed

So to sum up the killer was a mentally disturbed religious gung ho american?

..did anyone see flint lately btw?

LORD HELP OREGON

Re: George Tiller killed

Noir is a fine example of the ignorant left ("use a blender when they're half-birthed for all I care") to compare/contrast with Tiller's murderer ("death to the baby killers").

You're not pointing out anything of "religious gung ho american[s]," only your own willful ignorance.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: George Tiller killed

for your information, im a conservative when it comes to politics, particularily fiscal matters. However im not supersticious enough to be a religious

LORD HELP OREGON

Re: George Tiller killed

George Tilley's practises were questionable, but he was never convicted of any wrongdoing. Either way shooting someone dead is a crime.

Buddugoliaeth neu Marwolaeth

33 (edited by cipher 02-Jun-2009 07:13:52)

Re: George Tiller killed

To liberals in this forum. What aspects about "unborn" children give mothers the right to abort them? Is it because they are reliant on their mothers for survival? If that is the case, why don't we just kill all mentally handicapped people? They are completely reliant on us who have a mind that functions properly (though don't necessarily use it). So should we just kill all mentally handicapped people because they are inconvenient to us?

To me there are quite a few of non-religious arguments you can make. However, I won't disagree with abortion when the mother was raped, or possibly endangers the life of the mother. Otherwise, we're just making it alright for irresponsible females and males to suck up our tax dollars and be a detriment socially and economically to our nation.

"Vanity of Vanities" said the preacher, "Vanity of Vanities, all is Vanity"

Re: George Tiller killed

Typical

It's an issue that around half of the world considers a "controversial" or a "debatable" issue, and yet the other half (Particularly the southern United States) watches a medical practitioner get murdered and cheers.

Southern United States also have histories of killing black people and everybody would cheer and come up with gems like Balsz's "He was unwanted too".

It is the Pro-Lifers that are gonna hafta come to the table on this one. The choicers have been willing to talk for years. Your descendants will look back on you with such shame for comments that praise the death of anyone, let alone a doctor.

Worrrrrrrrrrrrrrd

Re: George Tiller killed

"The choicers have been willing to talk for years."?

Yeah, there's so much evidence of that. Oh, wait. There's none.

72% of Americans believe that late-term abortions are despicable, but pro-choice advocates aren't seeking any middle-of-the-road legislation that protects abortion rights and protects children's rights; they want full unrestricted women's rights to abort, late term and partial-birth.

This man made millions performing 60,000 abortions. Many were illegal--he was one of 3 men in the USA committing such abortions, taking refuge in the refusal of governors/AGs to to prosecute them for their crimes.

The man who killed him was arrested in the 90s for posession of explosives. People motivated by ideology are barely if at all influenced by right-wing discussion, which of course was already being blamed and demonized by pro-choicers minutes after Tiller's death.

The man was trash, the media is trash, and of the three (murderer, murdered, media) I give the killer the most credit for not being a jackass. I don't agree with what he did and I'm not "cheering" for him or praising those who do, but it's not a secret that just as the killer broke the law, so did the man he killed. Openly. For 35 years. They both broke the law; Tiller did it for millions of dollars, his killer did it on principle.

Do I feel sorry that someone's law-breaking for 35 years eventually upset someone enough to murder him? Not particularly. If I broke a law protecting human life thousands of times for 35 years I'd have to be a moron to claim surprise when someone shot me for it. Wouldn't you?

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

36 (edited by Justinian I 02-Jun-2009 11:05:55)

Re: George Tiller killed

> Blind Guardian wrote:

> "The choicers have been willing to talk for years."?

Yeah, there's so much evidence of that. Oh, wait. There's none.

72% of Americans believe that late-term abortions are despicable, but pro-choice advocates aren't seeking any middle-of-the-road legislation that protects abortion rights and protects children's rights; they want full unrestricted women's rights to abort, late term and partial-birth.>

Wrong. I'm pro abortion up until the third trimester. Although, I agree with you that the majority of pro choice advocates are rather extreme, although advocates in general tend to be extremists imo.

Re: George Tiller killed

If only we could abort some people on this forum. tongue

@justinian:
"although advocates in general tend to be extremists imo."
idd.

Re: George Tiller killed

lol little paul. tongue

Wrong? You just said I was wrong in stating that most pro-choice advocates aren't seeking moderate legislation and then said that you agree that the majority of pro-choice advocates are rather extreme. tongue

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: George Tiller killed

Eh. I need to stop with the rum.

Re: George Tiller killed

"It is the Pro-Lifers that are gonna hafta come to the table on this one."

What does this mean?

"The choicers have been willing to talk for years."

Yeah: "we won, give up."

"Your descendants will look back on you with such shame for comments that praise the death of anyone, let alone a doctor."

Screw my liberal descendants.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: George Tiller killed

"Screw my liberal descendants."
lol. That could so easily be taken out of context big_smile

Re: George Tiller killed

He's right. Liberals are such whores; most anyone could in fact screw them. yikes Maybe it's not a coincidence that they create so many kids they want to kill.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: George Tiller killed

no seriously have your way with my liberal descendants, buncha jerks

I wasnt' really making fun of Tiller with that joke, just the idea that YOUR wants mean people die

if I were gonna make fun of Tiller it would be for dying because he clung to God only, not God and to guns

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

44 (edited by avogadro 03-Jun-2009 09:44:43)

Re: George Tiller killed

""well, if someone is performing murders and the state isnt going to do anything about it, are you not justified in stopping them if they arent specifically targeting you?"

No, you aren't."

ok, so you walk into a bank, there are 20 people bound and gagged; theres a man with a gun standing over one of them, he shoots one in the back of the head then moves to teh 2nd. as he does this, you notice a gun on the floor right by you, you pick it up, tell him to stop or you will shoot, he ignores you shoots the 2nd person and moves to the third person, he doesnt think you have the balls to do it. it is in a rural area so it is unlikely that you could possibly reach any lawmen before he killed the rest. you are not justified to kill him? not only are you justified, you are obligated to do it.


Democracy fails when theres a lack of respect between the people of the democracy. when a large percentage of the population believes something is murder, and the government keeps it legal, it is a failure of the system.

Re: George Tiller killed

How dare you question the absolute omniauthority of government, avogadro? If you say that someone is obligated to do anything ever and government isn't going to do it for them, that's NOT comforting to the lazy and incompetent. And on those grounds, they disagree.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

46 (edited by Justinian I 03-Jun-2009 08:38:34)

Re: George Tiller killed

Hey now, don't bash the ladies. Lower prices are good.

Re: George Tiller killed

"Democracy fails when theres a lack of respect between the people of the democracy. when a large percentage of the population believes something is murder, and the government keeps it legal, it is a failure of the system."

Yeah, there's also a large percentage of the population that DOESN'T believe it is murder. In addition to this large percentage of the population, your government agrees with THEM. We could get into an abortion debate all we want, but the fact is that this debate is not about abortion, it is about a murder. An assassination of a doctor. And it's also about how almost every conservative in the room right now is condoning it.

Using your logic...which is that you consider it murder even though a large percentage of the population doesn't...I say George Bush should be assassinated on account of the fact that he dropped bombs on civilian areas. I think that is murder at least.

Worrrrrrrrrrrrrrd

Re: George Tiller killed

Most of us are not condoning his murder, even those of us who aren't surprised and don't feel particularly bad that a criminal who openly ignored the law was the victim of a crime. <28% who do not believe late term abortion is murder are a large percentage? I thought 72% was a relatively large portion, compared to the <28%. Perhaps you know mathematics better than I do!

This is a discussion about a murder. A murder of a man who ignored the law and terminated babies who could have lived without their mothers. And "almost every conservative in the room right now" is not condoning it. If you had a point you wouldn't be lying about this.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: George Tiller killed

Most of us are not condoning his murder, even those of us who aren't surprised and don't feel particularly bad that a criminal who openly ignored the law was the victim of a crime. <28% who do not believe late term abortion is murder are a large percentage? I thought 72% was a relatively large portion, compared to the <28%. Perhaps you know mathematics better than I do!

This is a discussion about a murder. A murder of a man who ignored the law and terminated babies who could have lived without their mothers. And "almost every conservative in the room right now" is not condoning it. If you had a point you wouldn't be lying about this.

>>your government agrees with THEM<<

The law does not agree with them, but appointed officials (and thus presumably the elected governors who appointed them) are ignoring the law. Is the law sovereign or the officials who ignore it? I always thought the law was the ultimate authority, in which case the villains here are the government officials who ignore the law in addition to Mr. Tiller who ignored the law in addition to the man who murdered him. His murderer killed him. We know this. But by your own admission the politicians who ignored the law and allowed Mr. Tiller to ignore it (which got him shot) are at fault for ignoring the sovereign authority of the land which would have prevented this murder.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

50 (edited by avogadro 03-Jun-2009 19:16:17)

Re: George Tiller killed

> Timmyville wrote:

> "Democracy fails when theres a lack of respect between the people of the democracy. when a large percentage of the population believes something is murder, and the government keeps it legal, it is a failure of the system."

Yeah, there's also a large percentage of the population that DOESN'T believe it is murder. In addition to this large percentage of the population, your government agrees with THEM. We could get into an abortion debate all we want, but the fact is that this debate is not about abortion, it is about a murder. An assassination of a doctor. And it's also about how almost every conservative in the room right now is condoning it.

Using your logic...which is that you consider it murder even though a large percentage of the population doesn't...I say George Bush should be assassinated on account of the fact that he dropped bombs on civilian areas. I think that is murder at least.


sigh. you're not understanding the point. theres two opinions out there that abortion is murder and that abortion isnt murder. im not saying one is right and the other is wrong. im saying, when you legalize something a large percentage of the population considers murder, these things are going to happen; its irresponsible for a government to support something a large percentage of its population considers murder, it creates violence and instability. the people that consider abortion murder have even elected an "anti-abortion" person into the presidency twice in a row with nothing changing; so now the illusion of it being a Democracy is fading from them; chances of stopping this mass murder, through political channels isnt realistic to them, the government is giving them no choice but violence; if anything, incidents like this are going to grow in frequency.