> either you think the world is definite, and we have no way to know that how our minds interpret the stimulus reflects anything in the world and we no more know the earth revolves around the sun then we know there is a God. or you define the world as a construct of our minds. if you consider the world a construct of our minds, and you believe there are religious people that exist, you are living in a world where God exists.

>what part of that dont you understand?

You had left out a lot of the explaination in what you are trying to say. You drew the dots on the page but you didn't number them.

I dont like that you have made up that everyone has to think either 'this' or 'that' and then draw some unfounded conclusions for each, based upon your beliefs and interpretations. It's fluff, and neither your 'this' nor 'that' are correct.

The parts that I consider to be incorrect are (i) "and we no more know the earth revolves around the sun" and (2) pretty much the entire second part about subjectiveness.

(i) Did you google it?

The universe may have many dimensions, but the observations and tests we can make in our 3 (maybe 4th with maths - undecided) are definate.

(ii) Moving from a level where I had roughly agreed with you (we are limited to what we can percieve, and we can not percieve all dimensions) to 'the world that is a construct of our minds' is a big jump. It is not a construct in our mind and because some group of people believe an old story, an all powerful being exists. Have you considered writing fantasy books, or perhaps sci-fi?

You have been quite successful in removing from the simple part of it. I'm going to try make sure we have got it roughly equal understanding of what you say, and try to summarise how I see this, and some of what you are saying:

1) 2000 years ago there was this guy who was good at public speaking. People tended to follow him and eventually write stories about him. He talked about this guy called God. God Loves you and makes you feel good inside.

2) Your priest and family tells you that this God guy that he talked about is true. Never mind that some of what they believe doesn't match some of the stories that were written - you can choose to interpret them anyway you like - never mind how plain the style of writing. Maybe Jesus and his followers were joking about some of the stories that he told

3) People from other religions are worshoping the same God - nevermind that both religious texts say that you are not worshoping the same God.

4) It is not possible to measure, observe, test or prove anything. Especially the earth orbiting the sun. Never mind that the Vatican has said they were wrong and the earth does orbit the sun.

5) People have passed down the stories about the good public speaker and God from one generation to the next and have taught each other about it, so therefore our minds make this character real to those that want to believe in him. Particularly if the world is only as our minds make it. Even if he is not real he could still be in our minds because even though 'dirt is dirt' and this 'laptop is only a laptop' we can only interpret whatever our senses pick up. Nevermind that the universe could actually be a colony on top of 4 elephants and the back of a giant turtle, the stories about God were really good!

6) You follow a good set of morals that happen to be consistent with what Jesus said, so this is a good reason to believe that God must be true.

I'm busy at work so don't have time to think if I missed any, I'll try think about it later. Will also tell my motivation for this all a bit later on.

>google what?

For the last couple of posts I've asked you to google the proof of earth orbiting the sun.

>we're not going to get anywhere, when all you try to do is distort what i said. i said none of the 6 things you are summarizing.

I'm not trying to distort, I'm summarise - with a couple of my own thoughts added on top to show why I don't agree.

>now, you dont agree that we cant prove the earth orbits around the sun, correct? how can we prove the the earth orbits around the sun when the only thing we can use to prove it are signals sent to our brain whose authenticity cant be proven? if we cant prove the authenticity of the signals sent to our brains, how can you prove anything based on them? or do you think theres a way to authenticate the signals sent to our brains?

I do not agree. We can prove that the earth orbits the sun. Google it.  When I said that I agree we can only interpret the world we see and sense, I mean it because we can not see the curvature of space, we can not see 600 parsecs, we can not time travel, we can not see other dimensions. Suggesting that the signals sent to our brain are not correct - as if God was some kind of sicko that likes to play with them (is that what you are suggesting?) - is beserk.

> i googled, and didnt see anything thats proves that our observations of the sun, earth are accurate.

You mustn't have very good googling skills. I typed 'proof eath orbits sun' and clicked "Im feeling lucky" for the first time and it came to the website of a Cornell University and it discusses the proof.

>well, if its so beserk there must be proof disproving it, where is it? you so blindly believe that the signals sent to our brains are correct - as if some God made them correct.

WTF. Stupid conclusions. How about study of biology and human body. How long has that been going on. Evolution made it work. Not a flucking invisible magical creature.

What is more reasonable; animals and creatures changing slowly over a long period of time to suit their environment, or an invisible magical creature than created everything perfectly. Look back at the questions I asked Phoenix about evolution. He couldn't answer them, and I doubt you will.

Your comment "as if some God made them correct." Is such an absolute pile of BS. Why did he give flightless birds wings, tail bones to humans or eyes to blind fish?

edit: Thought I'd remove my last line of abuse. Didn't really contribute much.

> thats flawed, its like knowing someone is telling the truth because they tell you they're telling the truth. all our studies of biology and the human body arent reliable because they're based on the signals sent to our minds that we have no way of authenticating.

If you want to base any discussion you have in any part of your life that upon the foundation that everything may be BS because your brain is only interpretting signals - then what is the point in discussing anything? It's a complete waste of time.

Further down in this post, I say this: [to a sane reality-based mind (not the reality where God is some kind of physco that interupts signals to our brain)]. Are you suggesting that God would interupt the thought process and signals-to-brain process, or some other creature? If God designed everything, then he would be ultimately responsible for any incorrect interpretations or mixed-brain-signals. Is he mentally deranged? He provides in the commandments that we must worshop only him and call him Lord etc, yet some flaw (a flaw from my point of view - not from his) allows some external-force (or maybe God himself) to provide mixed signals between our brains and our senses where a billion or so people interpret there to be no God, and another billion or 2 or 3 believe in a God despite the one that's the father of Jesus. Interesting.

>ummm, why dont you repost them directed at me if you want.

ok, sounds good:

I still haven't visited this website, but I will use it as my next question to you: "Why does God hate amputees?". Surely some amputees are great God-loving and saving-the-world and helping-fellow-man kind of people. Surely he would grant some of these extra people a replacement limb, so that they can carry on their great work. He grants extra replacement limbs to Salamanders, why not humans?

How about the good ol' evolution / creationism. There is obviously a lot that can be debated here; entire threads are dedicated to it. I'll attempt to keep it simple. If evolution is a pile of #$%#, then why do some snakes have usless pelvises, some animals living in the dark have skin grow over their eyes over long periods of time, and how do viruses mutate?

And I'll repeat the stuff I said in my last post to you:

What is more reasonable [to a sane reality-based mind (not the reality where God is some kind of physco that interupts signals to our brain)]; animals and creatures changing slowly over a long period of time to suit their environment, or an invisible magical creature than created everything perfectly. Look back at the questions I asked Phoenix about evolution. He couldn't answer them, and I doubt you will.

Your comment "as if some God made them correct." Is such an absolute pile of BS. Why did he give flightless birds wings, tail bones to humans or eyes to blind fish?

arent you assuming the values of a God are the same as the values of Humans, isnt that a giant assumption?

well at least the bible is saying that god created humans as his copy.. so you could assume that we honour the same values as our god.

>the point of discussing it is to show that believing in things that arent proven is something everyone does; and religious person takes no more of a leap then someone who isnt religious and is smart enough to realize that everything he senses doesnt necessarily exist

hahaha, ok

>God doesnt hate amputees; you ask why doesnt he do stuff, but why would he? arent you assuming the values of a God are the same as the values of Humans, isnt that a giant assumption?

You were the one that, a few posts ago, were talking about values associated with christianity and God. And he did some miracles thru Jesus 2000 yrs ago. Why no more? Why would salamanders regrow limbs when people (who one assumes would spread the word about God more often than Salamanders) cant?

>evolution isnt a pile of shit; its most likely what happened.  MOST religious people beleive evolution exists.

Some do at least, do you have any figures that show its MOST? Pls inform me when the church (vatican?) stopped teaching that God created everything in its current state, and started teaching evolution (if indeed they have)? Sort of like how they decided that the earth does orbit the sun after they had been preaching it the other way around for... well a really long time? Is it just another example where you can choose to believe whatever you like - essentially making up your own religion? ... God created everything - did he start life and create Adam and Eve? - then let evolution take over... isnt this just you making up your own weird blend of religion and science, neither of which are based upon anything?

A few questions for you there.

> values associated with a religion does not equal the values of God.

Where do the values associated with religion come from? God sends his prophet to earth with his message about Love, peace, the commandments - these sound like values to me. If we pretend that these are not values, then where did they come from? Did Jesus, a member of the church, or some other guy decide to insert them because they sounded nice to him? If the answer to that is 'yes' then it sounds to me just like a president making up rules for a club, or Howard making up stuff for scientology.

>Christianity's population is 2.5 billion. Catholicism is 1.2 billion. eastern orthodox is .081 billions; combined they account for over half the christian population, they do not believe in a literal interpretation of the bible, so do not support creationism. the other religions dont have such strong churches so there are differences in beliefs with them, so its hard to separate them on this issue to find out how many worship what, but considering none of the large categories' sections that define their faith inclused creationism, it is likely that even a majority of them dont believe in it.

Perhaps I can learn something. What are those groups in the US that advocate the teaching of creationism in schools? Do they not fit into these brands of christianity? Why is there such great controversy about evolution vs creationism vs people who try to blend both? Don't tell me it's 1% of people, 'cause that would deserve a chuckle.  On one hand you are saying that all these billions of people believe in evolution, on the other hand you say that you are free to believe in what you like. If you think that I would believe you that all of those people do not take the bible literally (ie choosing creationism over evolution - I detest the blend of both - it's an attempt to justify a magical being by twisting science) then you are fooling yourself, not me.

>they never taught that God created everything in its current state. and i would imagine they started teaching evolution when it became widely accepted in science. during medieval times, getting an education meant being taught by a church, so yes, churches that taught mathematics and science, and other things and werent always correct, but educating people in what was modern science/mathematics/literature and dogma are two different things. even today, there are alot of catholic schools giving affordable educations to people, these catholic school teach things such as evolution and the big bang theory; but neither of those are part of dogma, and if either of them are disproven, it doesnt disprove the church, the church was just educating people on current science.

While some of this may be true, you are living in denial, or joking. Saying that the church never taught creationism as what they truely believed, and that it did not, for example, denounce Darwin's theories as anti-God/anti-religion is an alternate rose-coloured-glasses version of history if ever I heard one.

>you can always believe whatever you like, its called free will.

You missed the point, or are avoiding it on purpose. As humans we can believe whatever we like; but if we follow a particular religion now we are told what to believe. edit: Even you inadvertedly agreed with this above by saying "1.x billion believe in evolution".... it tells us what values to believe in, what to believe x man said to y woman in the story of z and what this means about Gods word.

Here's a few that I'm asking a bit more directly than in previous posts; I haven't quite got this answered. Even if some being that we could call God exists - how do you know that he knows you exist? How do you know that he loves you? How do you know that there is a heaven? How do you know he listens to your prayers, and even gives a stuff? Because your family and your priest told you so and it makes you feel good on the inside? That's the only reason I can see!

"we're not going to get anywhere, when all you try to do is distort what i said."

"you so blindly believe that the signals sent to our brains are correct - as if some God made them correct."

Why do people bother? He's only after an argument, not a discussion.

> ☭ Fokker wrote:

>> "we're not going to get anywhere, when all you try to do is distort what i said."
>>"you so blindly believe that the signals sent to our brains are correct - as if some God made them correct."

>Why do people bother? He's only after an argument, not a discussion.

Who are you talking about? If you are talking about me the answer is:

ummm nope. I'm always asking questions to try understand his position and beliefs. I have almost finished with the discussion/debate/argument and will tell avo why I'm pleased that he has gone through this for me.

Quoting that stupid second line of avo's makes me think that either (i) you are also pretty spaced-out there in your beliefs or (ii) you agree that it's a stupid thing to say, so your post is about him.

>well, you now know that theres no evidence of anything in the world. why do you believe everything you believe when its based on nothing?

You believe that there is no evidence of anything, not me.

>wrong he could live by our morals. i worship a God who's values are different from our own, and inspires us to challenge ourselves to certain moral standards that are best for humanity.

You have lost track of this item of discussion and got it back-to-front. If you go back a few posts you will notice that I was saying that God doesn't want to help, for example, any amputees that got injured whilst doing His work, helping, healing, spreading the word of God etc. Then you said Gods values are different from our own... I asked where do ours come from..... you said that values prescribed by the church come from God. Now you say that his moral standards are what are best for humanity -  but the best thing would be healing the occasional deserving amputee so that they can carry on teaching, healing, assiting and working for God.

>>"Don't you think that if 20-25% of people in the USA are fundamentalists, then that could potentially be dangerous when they are in command of the largest military in the world?"

>i think they're more danagerous to the rest of the population of the US then they are to foreign people.

I'm glad you think that these religious people are dangerous though, thanks.

>>"Who/what created God?"

>God always existed.

wow, magical, nothing created him. He just sat there for an infinity period of time whistling to himself and then one day he got a bit bored so thought he'd create the universe, earth and people to worshop him. What an arrogant loser. Not someone I'd take my values-system from.

>no, im saying we have no evidence that anything we sense actually exists. we have proof of nothing; you base all your beliefs on blind faith in your senses and the senses of other people. heres an example you help you understand alittle more, you see two posts in the distance, one appears to be taller then the other, you look at a different angle and the opposite looks taller; this isnt some matrix designed to misinform you, its a common fault of our sense of vision where closer objects appear larger; im not saying that we cant believe anything because theres a possibility of a matrix, im saying our senses can be faulty; could always be faulty, and theres no way to prove they arent.

Thanks for your example, but I know what you have been saying. Optical illusions are vastly different and very minor compared to what you are proposing; which is that our senses are probably completely screwed up and don't at all interpret anything correctly. Having a discussion about anything at all is pointless when you want to base it on the fact that perhaps your eyes make up everything you see. Perhaps we actually walk upside down on the inside of an empty balloon-like earth. If you consider this a possibility, how can you discuss anything. Perhaps that feel-good feeling when you are praying is actually a feeling that your body gets when it increases the amount of carbon taken in by your lungs because carbon is actually a mild aphrodisiac. It's possible if everything we interpret is just a construct of our minds and senses - it probably makes God less likely rather than more likely.

Why do churches have lightning rods? I saw one on the way to work today and it made me wounder.