avo u can go to somewhere in africa.. people there are everything but socialist i would say.

ok avo how about you come here and try to convince the people that in future they will only have to pay 20% tax instead of 50%.
Also tell them that will totally ruin the welfare state, means most of them will have to worry about healthcare insurance.. tell them they will have to save up money in the future ti send their kids to school.
i am not so sure you would get a majority.

Okok and about your stimulus package i can not say much.
850 billion appears a lil much to me and i do not see the logic in fighting a crisis which is basically a credit crisis with new credits.
Though.. this is not a socialist problem.. I see goverments around the world throwing away the money they dont have now.. socialist or not.

But i understand u need someone to blame shit on...

no i am trying to make the point that not everyone in the world follows your god given oppinion.

Taxes are defined in our constitution. They are ment to e.g. maintain public order. They are not "robbery" because in return for your taxes u get something. Let it be roads.. depending on the country education.. healthcare e.g.

Are u aware how a country would look where no taxes are payed? there can not be a state without taxes because the "state" itself needs money to maintain itself. No roads.. no police, no firefighters...

>>hell, arent Plasma TV's getting banned in the EU?<<

Really? If so, it sucks to be them more than I knew!

>>Also YOU are the one being high and mighty by saying the system U prefer is the one EVERYONE loves and which is right.<<

I'm starting with freedom, a basic human right, and asking you to provide justification to take it away. As far as I know natural law favors me enjoying the fruits of my labor in a free market economy; it does not give you the inherent right to interfere with my happiness because of your illogical fear (which is not backed up by any logic or explanation, as we see you repeatedly fail to provide here).

>>I simply have another view on goverments as you do. You now are the one blaming me for things i never did.. in the typicall arrogance we are all used from you.<<

Still waiting for that explanation for the tinking of freedom you require to calm your illogical fears.

>>Kemp.. i immediatlly replied without ANY maths.. i really wonder what you read....<<
VS
>>"At least the CO2 part is something that makes sence to me..."<<

It's obvious to me now why you can claim that the CO2 part makes sense to you without math; you just don't care that it doesn't actually make sense, you're not even bothering to evaluate the bad math behind it. You just buy it. You don't even care about the math that fails to make it "make sense" but makes it clear it's illogical.

>>i am sorry if you are so well educated that u understand written things in a different way then they are writen by normally educated people.. <<

Says the guy who claims involving math makes sense while openly stating that he has NO concern for the math behind it.

>>Also i have to say it is U and only U who is insulting other people in this forum in this case. Its you in your totally narrow minded point of view.
Its you who is telling other people they are not educated if they dont agree to your point of view.<<

Still waiting for that explanation you fail to give. It's alright. I'll keep explaining what you're failing to provide and you'll keep failing to provide it, educated as you are.

>>i still am able to live a live being worth living. I still consider myself to be a happy human being.. and i am lucky i dont need to worry about anything at the moment..<<

Okay. So what? Prisoners don't usually kill themselves. They must still consider their lives worth living. So what?

>>but i think you would not believe me i am happy and all well since i do not live in your freedom loving american system.<<

I believe you. We've been over your state of fear and why you support what you do.

>>I live in a country with a huge welfare state and BIG economically success.. i can

Schniepel,

You know what? I would assent to an autocratic government as long as it guaranteed economic freedom.

Political freedom? Social safety nets? Sure, take them away. But without economic freedom, there is no point in living.

> Schniepel wrote:

> No goverment can guarantee anything without raising taxes to maintain itself.

Do you think that paying 20-30% taxes takes away your economical freedom?>

Depends. 90% taxes definitely takes away my economic freedom. I'm a government spending minimalist, and I'm pretty sure that 20% is generally not an example of a minimalist government.

> Schniepel wrote:

> I think 90% is a pretty unrealistic number... Lets take germany as example.. we have max. Tax % for income tax 42%. That, for a democratic western country is allready pretty much i would say. I dont know how much Tax max % is in the US.

That 42% taxes include all goverment services besides healthcare, longterm care insurance and unemployment insurance.. including all that you come to roughly 50% taxes IF you have to pay max taxes.

Do 50% income loss take away your economical freedom? (remember healthcare and all insurances are included in the 50% so you dont have to worry about them anymore).>

Yes it does.

50%? Ouch. Maybe I have a more efficient and less expensive alternative for all those services government is giving me, which is ofc always with poorer service and inflated prices.

Hell, maybe I don't want to invest in my health care, and instead want to risk it by investing in stocks for a bigger return later. If it turns out bad, then my fault.

I swear, economic freedom is trampled on because people are such immature children who aren't actively engaged in the services they pay for.

i now went to some comparrison webpage for private healthcare insurance.
i chose only the services which are included in national healthcare also and tada.. surprise surprise.. the cheapest offer is a lil cheaper then national healthcare while most of the offers are more expensive.

http://www.geld.de/private-krankenversicherung-tarifvergleich.html

pitty the page is on german though..

Thank you for educating me. You have brought to my mind some questions perhaps you would be so kind as to help me answer.

* I have a gas mask. Should I wear it to avoid CO2 poisoning? I didn't know until you educated me that CO2 poisoning is something I ought to fight for my right to not breathe in.

* I've been a bum living in government subsidized housing living on welfare for 7 years. Is there any limit on how much medical care I can expect to be donated to me? I would hate to have to ever work to produce anything and earn the work I expect others to do for me. I thought about buying additional healthcare but I decided to buy booze with that money instead. I still get the same care as people who didn't buy booze with that money, right? You mentioned wanting care even if you passed up private health insurance. Presently I already get free care, seeing as my income is only what I recieve from welfare. You're saying my present free care is being taken away?

* I don't understand how taxes are paying for a part of your freedom. How can your freedom need payed for? Is that like freedom to take a motorcycle and ride it and claim it as yours without giving anything to the people who gathered and refined the materials it is made out of or the people who produced this machine? I didn't know that making others do work for you for nothing in return was freedom. Is my dictionary outdated? Does my freedom include the right to have someone research and construct a new one and print and mail it to me? You said that you could not find a definition of freedom that defined it the way you are using it, so you concluded that the word doesn't have a real definition and everyone can make it up for themself. Is this true for other words like robbery, rape, and murder? If you can decide that freedom means whatever you want it to me, not what society understands and uses it to mean, does language have any value? Should I get an education to learn to express myself with words that have the meaning I wish to express, or continue to abuse the english language and pretend that people should understand what I meant to say and agree with me? If I intentially misuse words to mislead people, should I claim that I'm using a new, more elite definition of these words that no one else knows yet, or feign stupidity and claim that I was not aware that I was saying things that were grossly inaccurate?

* You asked if freedom for me was determined by the amount of money I have. I thought that freedom was the right to live my life as I want to live my life without people making me do things for them by force and threats of punishment if I did not. This is what I thought slavery was. If freedom is the right to make me do things for other people by force and threat of punishment if I do not do it, isn't freedom, literally, slavery? I thought they were different things. I'm confused.

* My former government [you mean that Bush guy? he has a funny name. Bush. haha] never kept me in fear. I disagreed with his policies on philosophical and moral grounds. I openly stated this lots of places and when I voted. That said, can you explain why it makes you laugh that I caution against ignorantly giving politicians power to further their own ends when they mislead people by telling them things which they need to fear which do not actually threaten them?

* How do you get free healthcare and education? Do you have robots or aliens do it for you that I do not have or know about? That seems a bit crazy. You're kidding and people provide these things for you, right? How do they do it for free? Are they slaves?

* I agree that moving in small steps is better than not moving at all. How much movement is .000000001% of a step? Isn't that like, not a step or even a half step or even a ten millionth of a step? Does every billionth of a step really count? How far can I hope to get in my lifetime if I move in billionths of steps? Isn't there a better way to move than billionths of a step? Why can't I just walk? Is something in my way? Shouldn't I find a way around/over/through what is in my way rather than pushing against what is in my way billionths of a step at a time? Won't that get me billions of times farther?

* Which ideals are idealistic and which are something else? Are people guided by ideals I do not agree with not idealistic?

* I pay less than 42% of my income now for healthcare and insurance. If I started paying them to the "government" company to get the same services at an increased price, would that be a better deal?

LOL BW. That's what you get for living in NYC.

Schniepel,

That is an outrageous amount of taxes.

And 2512 euro is equivalent to $2817.74. I personally make $1,400 a year (well doing nothing), which is 1,055 euro. It's also tax free.

I also live on a $12,000 a year budget. $16,000 if you include education fees. That's 9,049 euro or 12,066 euro. My apartment takes most of my budget though.

ROFL

Ok I make $1,400 in addition to the 16,000 I have every year.