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Just one question: where did evolution start then?
If there was noone creating the universe, there would still be nothing, and nothing can't just blow up, create the universe, create planets, create life, and then make that life evolve
For all we know those "evolutions" are just adjustments made by God to increase our lifespans to make sure everything happens according to His plan.
Job 1:1- There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job: and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared GOD, and eschewed evil. (every one of you know this story right)
38:1-18
Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for i will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when i laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hast laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of GOD shouted for joy? Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? When i made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it, And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors, And said, hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed? Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment. And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arms shall be broken. Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? Or hast thou walked in the search of the depth? Have the gates of Death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of Death? Hast thou percieved the Breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all. ( should i go on)
hahaha
dude the universe is a statistical anomaly no one knows why it happened XD but one day pooof a super dense anomaly decided to start expanding and it hasent stopped since
im not an atheist but i also dont believe these creation wakos that totally deny the fact that humanity has spent centuries building the knowledge that it has to better understand the world and beyond. but i also believe that every person is entitled to believe what ever they want.
> johnwayne wrote:
> Job 1:1- There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job: and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared GOD, and eschewed evil. (every one of you know this story right)
well, that's a nice idea. to be a perfect human, you must be afraid.
haha
XD
why would a benevolent being such as god want humanity to fear him?
answer that joe
"Just one question: where did evolution start then?
If there was noone creating the universe, there would still be nothing, and nothing can't just blow up, create the universe, create planets, create life, and then make that life evolve
For all we know those "evolutions" are just adjustments made by God to increase our lifespans to make sure everything happens according to His plan."
thats exactly how i feel. i dont believe in creatonism, but i also dont believe that we and this universe were just that damn lucky:P i believe in evolution and i believe in the big bang but iv never understood why scientists just say that it was just luck. thats not really very scientific.
How about this: 20 step proof that God exists and created the universe, purely based on simple observation and logical thinking (since obviously bible quotes don't work)
1) Every effect has a cause which is greater (that is, more complex) than itself.
2) The universe is an effect which must have a cause which is greater (more complex) than itself.
3) The universe exists. (Pantheism is wrong)
Therefore,
4) The cause of the universe exists.
5) The universe contains the personal and the moral. (We humans are personal and moral.)
Therefore,
6) A (at least) personal moral cause for the universe exists. So the cause can now be called "He" not "It".
7) The universe does not create something from nothing (by observation), yet it is something (See #3 above )
8) Therefore, the universe had to be created from nothing (or from something that was ultimately created from nothing.)
Therofore,
9) The personal moral existing cause for the universe can create (i.e., a personal moral Creator exists.)
10) If the Creator-Cause were finite, then He would have another Creator-Cause who would in turn have a Creator-Cause and so forth.
This leads to an infinite regress of causes.
...CN --- ... C3 --- C2 --- C1 --- Universe
11) But that would mean that at least one finite Creator-Cause would be either (a) self-caused or (b) uncaused. That is impossible because (a) a being cannot precede itself to cause itself and (b) nothing finite is uncaused (by observation)
Therefore,
12) All the causes cannot be finite (non-ultimate) causes.
Therefore,
13) The personal moral existing Creator-Cause is infinite (i.e. ultimate)
14) The infinite cause must be eternal because eternality is infinity applied to time (and no meaningful statement can be made about space without reference to time).
15) An infinite eternal Cause could not change (since anything He would change into, He would already be).
Therefore,
16) The Creator-Cause must be all-knowing, all-powerfull and all-perfect (otherwise He could change).
Therefore,
17) A personal, moral, infinite, eternal, immutable (unchanging), all-knowing, all-powerfull, all-perfect Creator-Cause exists.
18) Such a Being is worthy of worship.
19) A being worthy of worship can be called God.
Therefore,
20) God exists.
To sum it up:
1) Every effect has a cause.
2) The universe is an effect.
3) The universe has a cause which we call God.
"3) The universe exists. (Pantheism is wrong)"
i dont see how those two statements are connected...?
"So the cause can now be called "He" not "It""
sexist
and though i agree with your previous post, the problem you have is that you just assumed that the creator of the universe and the creator of morality are the same person/being.
Don't ask me, just copied it from a leaflet I'm sure it has it's reasons ^^
Besides I don't need to be convinced by that so yeah
Who would the other one be then?
The bible doesn't say there was someone else present so it would have to be the same one no?
I wonder if Joe could resist the temptation of Loz skillfully trying to persuade him to sleep with her. My guess is that biology would overcome God.
Winter,
#11 is flawed.
Our knowledge of the universe is very limited. That's a hasty generalization. For all we know a cause could be uncaused or caused by itself.
For all we know the first unmoved mover could exist in nature and be nothing like what we consider God to be. It could also be one of several first movers, in which case we should be polytheists. The creators could also have created other worlds and do not give a crap about us. They set everything in motion and it continues, and we were a creation project they long ago stopped caring about.
Moreover, the logic after the first cause being infinite is fallacious. It doesn't prove that it is moral or all powerful, all knowing and perfect, only that it is infinite.
@archangel: i figured it out
check #7
pantheism is where everything = God, but if God = the universe it would mean it created itself and that would stroke with the whole Cause-Effect thing right? An effect can't cause itself and it also can't be uncaused because the universe exists.
Made sense in my head anyway ^^
oh sorry my brain's a bit asleep. thought u said polytheism, not pantheism
I didn't wrote it myself, just copied it from a leaflet
Besides like I said already, I don't need to be convinced, the bible is enough for me.
God doesn't lie, so if He says He created everything, He did, end of story for me.
so if you believe in evilution, do you know you came from a rock
What amazes me is that people criticize my Christian faith because I should be "filled with love" yet they have expressed a blatant lack of such in telling me to leave them to their "Christian thread."
I'm all for being judgmental, but not unless one has their own priorities in order first. Perhaps yall should look at yourselves before judging others.
Btw, this is not directed at Winter or KTC, or perhaps a few others here. Thank you for not jumping down my throats, even when you disagree.
"Perhaps yall should look at yourselves before judging others."
I will if you will
and im currently only criticising the fact that you seem to be too ashamed to reveal what branch of christianity you follow.
he reads the white mans bible probably XD
maybe a neo nazi?
> "I will if you will"
Sounds good to me. I do apologize for my narrow-mindedness. Sometimes I mean it, but sometimes (even in this thread) its gotten a little out of hand.
> "and im currently only criticising the fact that you seem to be too ashamed to reveal what branch of christianity you follow."
Archangel: did you read Ephesians 1:5? I'm really hoping that would steer you in the direction I want to go in revealing that answer.
> Archangel wrote:
> u go to sleep at 20:00 KtC ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I try to =P , haven't been able to for the past few nights though =/. It's been getting rather rough on me too =/.
> {pee-stoner}stoned-llama wrote:
> haha
XD
why would a benevolent being such as god want humanity to fear him?
answer that joe
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This I will attempt to answer if you really ask the question in honesty . If you believe that there is no God, then you have nothing to fear. Really, that's pretty simple. I mean, you can fear for your life, however because of the shortness of life and because well, there are billions of people on earth with people before perhaps there is even in the trillions of people that have existed, one life truly and utterly does not matter. If you have no God, there is no judgment. If there is no God, really, there are no consequences. I'm finding it even hard for there to even be a reason, outside of perhaps if you want to argue, survive and spread our DNA so that way it can pass on to the next generation. But then you will make that your god, your reason, your purpose I guess.
As it is written however,
"And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him".
God is benevolent, yes, however, as it is also written, "It has been said,
bravo KC, know what GOD is talking about when he says "lest his deeds should be exposed".
Anyone with half a brain knows that "God" how he's described by the church is an invention by humanity to have "some" explanation for the things they can't understand. It's something that has been made up to soothe the people's fear, originally, later it was used by "governments" or "empires" to lay fear onto the people so they would have the masses in hand.
I'm not denying that there is "something" higher than us that maybe gave impuls to creating this universe or is still maintaining it in some way. But is this higher force a "someone"? Probably not, and certainly not how it is described by the church.
Also if it is a "someone" why would he even remotely care about earth or better yet, the people on it? Earth is an insignificantly small part of the entire universe. And the poeple living on earth is still a very small part of earth.
> joe4444 wrote:
> I'm all for being judgmental, but not unless one has their own priorities in order first.
thou shalt not judge, unless you're god or jesus-joe? i swear, you seem more insane with every day that passes.
TU - lets clear a couple things in your post up real quick:
1) Anyone with half a brain...
Interesting statement, as near as I can tell, anyone with half a brain would recognize that "the church" is hardly a unified body world wide, even amongst sects of one religion. If you're talking about a supreme being, then you're suggesting you know the back ground of oh... a few thousand religions. Now, lets assume you're talking about Christianity, as this is the Christian thread. I for one am Christian, however, and even there we have some interesting takes on exactly who and what God is, not to mention a few wars over just that.
Catholic sect (in previous days) - God can be paid for salvation via the purchase of cute little forgiveness passes from the church
Protestant sect - not so much
Thus? Wars in england, ireland, switzerland, and darn near all of Europe at some point or another.
I won't delve further into the differences in the church - because although they are nearly infinite - they don't matter
As to God being made up to scare the masses... I don't see what's scary about him. I think your issue is that you some how see the Bible as a rule book when it's really just a letter. There isn't much in there that's not "good for you" - lets just be honest. So I'm not sure what you think I, and everyone else like me, is so afraid of, but I'd be interested to find out. For sure though, the church is just scaring me into wanting to financially support kids who are starving in Africa, and they are definitely terrifying me into feeding the poor and needy, and into being a better person... see where that one's going?
As to why would a supreme being care about earth, or us, what kind of awful question is that? Think about it for a couple seconds, and lets do a really quick little logical maneuver to explain why i believe that an infinite God would care about me.
Your stance against God giving a rat's hindquarters is that if he's infinite, we have nothing to give him. Know what? That's true, he has absolutely zero reason to care for us.
So, what exactly do you have to offer your earthly father, and lets just be honest. On my dad's birthday, I can get him nothing that he couldn't get himself. New TV... he's got more money than me, and if he doesn't, he still has plenty. So lets go ahead and take out monetary gifts. Time just to visit and be friends. What a great gift... but he's got friends, and again - why should he care when really I can offer him nothing but pain, disappointment, the trouble and cost of feeding me, and a home made card. Because he made me - my success is his success, my growth is his goal.
In our view, God is the same way. He's got no reason to care, he's got no reason to do a darn thing. But he does, and that's basically the whole point.
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