Re: The big Obamacare thread.

It's a well established fact that the ACA pushes more people onto medicaid.

It's a well established fact that many doctors don't accept medicaid because it doesn't pay out enough.

It's a well established fact that that as medicaid goes more broke, it'll pay out even less and less doctors and medical services will accept it.

You're just accusing me of not backing up my statements because you know NOTHING about the topic but talking points. You're rambling about me, but you haven't taken issue with a single specific thing I said. What do you want me to back up? What claim do you challenge?

Again, all childish cry spam, no substance.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: The big Obamacare thread.

"It is a well established fact" is not proof.  It's an assertion.  If it was well established, you could easily grab some source or two... kind of like that whole global warming debate.

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Re: The big Obamacare thread.

If he wants me to cite sources for well established facts, he has to man up and name which one's he's not aware of.

Citing sources for every passing reference to well established facts is not the norm, not in journalistic nor academic writing.

The burden of his complete ignorance of absolutely anything to do with the topic falls on him, not me. Before I am obligated to cite sources for things which everyone [who knows anything] knows and which nobody disagrees with, he first must man up and disagree with something, not just vaguely whine.

This process exposes fools who disagree with well-established facts because they're just vaguely disagreeing to troll and don't actually know anything about the topic they're trolling. That's why he's not specifying ANYthing specific he disagrees with.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

79 (edited by The Great Eye 24-Jan-2014 22:09:22)

Re: The big Obamacare thread.

Mister Spock wrote:

If he wants me to cite sources for well established facts, he has to man up and name which one's he's not aware of.

Citing sources for every passing reference to well established facts is not the norm, not in journalistic nor academic writing.

Very wrong.  Once you stop fact checking, the alternative is to just decide what has been "well established" and go with that.  It's possibly the worst form of discourse, as you're essentially dismissing any critical analysis of the issue.

Remember, you're in a debate here.  The very purpose of a debate on a politics forum is comparative analysis and checking of facts and theories.  If you're not willing to put your own up for scrutiny (by citing sources that can be analyzed, cross-examined, and scrutinized), you have no ground on which to demand the other side is doing it wrong.

I find it ironic that you say this while in another thread you're trying to undermine global warming, which is considered by "conventional wisdom" a "well established fact."  By this logic, I'd have every right to say "It's a well established fact" and be done with it.

Finally, even if "citing sources for every passing reference" isn't the norm in journalistic or academic writing, citing references for the things you really really really really give a shit about being right in the course of your writing IS the norm.


The burden of his complete ignorance of absolutely anything to do with the topic falls on him, not me. Before I am obligated to cite sources for things which everyone [who knows anything] knows and which nobody disagrees with, he first must man up and disagree with something, not just vaguely whine.

This process exposes fools who disagree with well-established facts because they're just vaguely disagreeing to troll and don't actually know anything about the topic they're trolling. That's why he's not specifying ANYthing specific he disagrees with.

If you don't cite sources and he doesn't cite sources, that doesn't mean you win.  It means I wasted my time reading this crap.  If you cite sources and he doesn't cite sources, that means you win because he's being useless.  If you both cite sources, that means I win because there's something us third parties can actually read in this forum.

It's not always about the people arguing in the forum.  Sometimes, there are third parties who actually want to learn things by reading this shit you people post.

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80 (edited by V. Kemp 25-Jan-2014 00:31:51)

Re: The big Obamacare thread.

He's not even stating what claims he disagrees with. In essence, he's not disagreeing with anything I said. He's just vaguely whining about me. It's spam and you should be deleting it until he actually talks about the topic. That's what hurts discourse; toleration of trolling and inane ad-hominem attacks.

I'm very clear about what I disagree with and cite sources as much as I feel is necessary to make my case. Considering that Key and Einstein are trolls who won't even disagree with anything specific I say, let alone cite sources, the amount of citation necessary is low.

The outside observer can see that I am clear in stating what factual claims I disagree with. The outside observer can see that I am clear when I find fault in another's logic.

I'm not going to cite sources for my claim that water contains hydrogen and oxygen unless someone disputes it. Taking the time to do that would be feeding trolls. I'll cite sources for my statements when people actually disagree with any of those statements. I'm not going to cite sources for every detail I mention because a troll vaguely whines.

You shouldn't use the phrase "fact checking." It's only used by dishonest hacks. If a journalist/blogger/academic says something, it should be honest. If it's a factual claim, that claim should stand up to scrutiny, or, upon such scrutiny exposing fraud, the journalist/blogger/academic should be ignored as the dishonest hack he/she is.

While all arguments over contested material should all have sources cited, what is contested is established by scrutiny and disagreement. In the absence of any disagreement, it's not even established what is contested.

I don't even know what I should be providing evidence for.

"When the health care law was passed, it required states to provide Medicaid coverage for adults between ages 18 and 65 with incomes up to 133% of the federal poverty level, regardless of their age, family status, or health."
https://www.healthcare.gov/what-if-my-s … -medicaid/

"Visualizing Health Policy: Medicaid Expansion Under the Affordable Care Act"
http://kff.org/infographic/visualizing- … -care-act/

"Status of State Action on the Medicaid Expansion Decision, as of December 11, 2013"
http://kff.org/health-reform/state-indi … -care-act/

Okay, so I've established that the ACA increases Medicaid enrollment. I don't know if that was ever disputed--nobody was kind enough to actually do anything but personally attack me--there's just vague whining that I was wrong. About something. What exactly was a secret. But maybe they didn't know what HealthCare.gov says on its own website--that the ACA included a requirement that Medicaid programs cover more people.

Or maybe Medicaid's solvency was questioned? I said the thing would go broke and reimburse healthcare providers even less money for services. A silly thing to question, since Medicaid already reimburses healthcare providers so little that many don't accept it.

"Medicaid already suffers from serious problems, including perpetual cost overruns, doctors who increasingly refuse to accept patients covered by the program, and low quality of care. Expanding Medicaid will only exacerbate these issues -- while doing little to improve the health of the people it covers."

"Medicaid patients often suffer from constrained access to care. Technically, they're "insured" -- but they can't find anyone to treat them."

"That's because fewer doctors are participating in the program. Between 2010 and 2011, a staggering 33 percent of doctors decided not to accept new Medicaid patients, chiefly because the program's reimbursement rates are incredibly low -- and often don't cover the cost of treatment."

"Last year, less than 70 percent of American doctors participated in Medicaid."

"Consequently, current beneficiaries have difficulty finding a physician who will accept their coverage. Once they do, they may have to wait a long time to see the doctor."

"Expanding the program will only exacerbate this state of affairs. In Massachusetts, for instance, which launched an Obamacare-style expansion of Medicaid on its own several years ago, just 66 percent of internists and 70 percent of family physicians accepted the state's Medicaid plan, according to a 2013 survey. In some counties, just 30 percent of family doctors take Medicaid."

http://www.mercurynews.com/opinion/ci_2 … are-access



Now that's a lot of material to support my unchallenged claims that the ACA expands medicaid and that medicaid sucks. If I do this for every thing I reference in passing in a post, my posts will be ridiculously long and convoluted and no third party is going to want to read it. This post is a demonstration of your ridiculous double standard.

I should only reasonably be finding, citing, and quoting sources to support references which are actually disputed. In order for that rational debate to take place, someone disagreeing with me will have to actually challenge something I say. Which nobody here has done.

The burden is yours to remove trolling spam posts from the forum which do not challenge anything anyone has said, but whine and attack posters. Remove those, and it'll be clear to all third parties that nobody is actually disagreeing with me. Just whining and ad-hominem attacking me, which is of course fallacious in addition to violating the forum's rules.

All that would remain would be actual challenges to facts and claims, to which I would respond as I did above to the hypothetical challenge to my claim that the ACA expands medicaid and that medicaid budget problems make it suck.

You need to make the forum better for third parties, not me. I'm only going to support claims that anyone challenges with citation and quotation. No third party wants to see me cite evidence for absolutely everything I mention. That'd be ridiculous. They want to see contested material supported/disputed. And that requires someone actually challenge something, which hasn't happened here.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: The big Obamacare thread.

Actually, I found that incredibly interesting as a third party!  ^_^  Definitely more interesting than the crap that's been going on so far.

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Re: The big Obamacare thread.

Mister Spock wrote:

Now that's a lot of material to support my unchallenged claims that the ACA expands medicaid and that medicaid sucks. If I do this for every thing I reference in passing in a post, my posts will be ridiculously long and convoluted and no third party is going to want to read it. This post is a demonstration of your ridiculous double standard.

So what the HELL is your problem?  What is your arguement in relation to your own beliefs?

Are you FOR, or AGAINST.  That's an arguement.

"ACA expands...."  OooooooooooooooooKay......  So what?

You BELIEVE it's a PROBLEM?  Or do you BELIEVE it's a SOLUTION to a PROBLEM?

=^o.o^= When I'm cute I can be cute.  And when I'm mean, I can be very very mean.  I'm a cat.  Expect me to be fickle.

Re: The big Obamacare thread.

Key wrote:
Mister Spock wrote:

Now that's a lot of material to support my unchallenged claims that the ACA expands medicaid and that medicaid sucks. If I do this for every thing I reference in passing in a post, my posts will be ridiculously long and convoluted and no third party is going to want to read it. This post is a demonstration of your ridiculous double standard.

So what the HELL is your problem?  What is your arguement in relation to your own beliefs?

Are you FOR, or AGAINST.  That's an arguement.

"ACA expands...."  OooooooooooooooooKay......  So what?

You BELIEVE it's a PROBLEM?  Or do you BELIEVE it's a SOLUTION to a PROBLEM?

Your turn, Key.  Stop trolling.  You can very clearly see, in the very sentence that you quoted, the following:

Mister Spock wrote:

Now that's a lot of material to support my unchallenged claims that the ACA expands medicaid and that medicaid sucks.

I repeat...

Mister Spock wrote:

and that medicaid sucks.

Notice the word "sucks," which clearly indicates a distaste for a particular policy or other course of action (in this case, Medicaid).  You can also see in that sentence that he claims ACA helps increase the size and scope of Medicaid.  So yes... even if you didn't read anything else in his post, you read that one sentence that articulates a position that he supports, and claim he's not taking a stand one way or another.  Warned.

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84 (edited by Key 27-Jan-2014 23:22:33)

Re: The big Obamacare thread.

OK, we'll put it succinctly.

Any law that provides that a service includes a group, or nation as a whole, will cost money.  Business interest groups refuse to pay for that service for that group, or as a nation as a whole, and thereby raises costs to provide that service.

But many of those laws are written to have loopholes, so that certain LARGE business interest groups, pay for a smaller amount, but still ask for higher premium rates, due to "Unforseen circumstances."  We pay higher rates in no small part by businesses who say, they can't read the future, and therefor it's not cost effective.  That's why costs for insurance go up.  Because they don't have a crystal ball.

It's year one of the Universal Health Care.  It's enacted.  With many provisions which will be further enacted in 2015.  The only thing people are doing is shooting the horse, before it's had a chance to make a run.

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85 (edited by V. Kemp 28-Jan-2014 04:04:45)

Re: The big Obamacare thread.

That's the most ignorant, overly simplistic explanation of human behavior and/or governance I've ever seen.

We know what's in the law--though it's thousands of pages and bureaucrats have made up far more regulations [than are in the law itself--the law gives them that power] arbitrarily since then, lawyers have read it and written about it. We know what's coming. And we've also read history and we know the reasons why healthcare costs in the USA are inflated.

I've posted concerning a number of reasons why the USA's health insurance prices are so high on this forum. You've responded to none of them, choosing instead to rehash that vague nonsense you just posted above yet again.




I've posted about the 1943 IRS ruling which has resulted in so much employer-based health insurance and how this results in people being over-insured, over-using insurance, and inflates the price of health insurance in the USA. You never responded in any way whatsoever.

I've posted about how the USA has the most advanced healthcare system in the world (feel free to dispute this if you want to embarrass yourself further), and this, combined with our being over-insured over-using health insurance multiplicitively (that should be a word) increases costs further. That's two factors multiplying each other to increase our costs of health insurance. You never responded to this in any way whatsoever.

Then there's abuse of law in our litigious society driving up costs. Again, no response from you in any form, ever.

Then there's big pharmaceutical companies paying doctors to push their drugs driving up costs on overpriced drugs, and driving up costs of treating ailments in general because these drugs are not only more costly but less effective (when they're effective at all) than natural/nutritional treatment/cures for most conditions. Again, no response from you in any form, ever.

Then there's state and federal laws raising the costs of entry into the healthcare industry even more than the industry already demands by it nature. Many states only have a few health insurance companies at all because competition is so financially discouraged and punished by the established companies and the lawmakers they bribe. And companies don't sell across state lines because states regulate health insurance so differently--government is limiting our options and hurting competition, not free markets. As always, you never respond to any of this in any way, to any extent, either.

And these are just topics of "why our health insurance was so inflated in price before the Affordable Care Act." (none of which the ACA addresses.) I could name as many or more topics on how the Affordable Care Act makes many of these problems worse and creates entirely new problems (and new price increases).

I've posted about all of this stuff before. It's as if you don't know any of this stuff exists. You don't even dismiss it as relatively unimportant with an explanation.




I'm not going to write a book with hundreds of citations explaining the history and state of health insurance in the USA before talking about it. The fact that I haven't written a book for you doesn't refute anything I've said. Government talking points aimed at unintelligent, uneducated people are not a response to anything I've posted in this thread or any other.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: The big Obamacare thread.

Mister Spock wrote:

Government talking points aimed at unintelligent, uneducated people are not a response to anything I've posted in this thread or any other.

And who do you credit for being unintelligent and uneducated, by your own admissable word.

=^o.o^= When I'm cute I can be cute.  And when I'm mean, I can be very very mean.  I'm a cat.  Expect me to be fickle.

Re: The big Obamacare thread.

*facepalm*

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Re: The big Obamacare thread.

In another life, Key was telling the other inmates of Sachsenhausen that the Fuhrer had only had 3 years and needed to be given more time before a reasonable judgment could be rendered.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: The big Obamacare thread.

It's not productive to cry in public when someone has more knowledge, education, and/or intellect than you. It just embarrasses oneself.

Put up or shut up. Nobody cares about your personal emotional issues.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: The big Obamacare thread.

http://hotair.com/archives/2014/02/10/c … obamacare/

Obamacare KILLS

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

91 (edited by The Great Eye 21-Feb-2014 02:51:45)

Re: The big Obamacare thread.

[Language+Insults+Spam=Delete]

[I wish I could obey forum rules]