Re: Why is US still funding Egypt?

That argument is entirely tautological.

We reject the possibility that the United States is acting in a manner to spread democracy promotion because there's a reputation for the United States acting in its own interests.  There's a reputation for the United States acting in its own interests because we reject the possibility the United States is acting in a manner to spread democracy promotion.

Reputation is just a question of outside perception of a nation.  It has nothing to do with what the nation is actually doing.  If I give $1.00 to a homeless person, it's just as likely someone could say "Oh, that's a generous person" as they could  say "You cheapskate, you could have afforded more."  I'm not doubting that there's a growing skepticism with the US.  Hell, a little skepticism is probably healthy.  However, just because someone has a particular reputation, it doesn't define what they do.  It's just that... a reputation.

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27 (edited by Xeno 07-Sep-2013 18:36:54)

Re: Why is US still funding Egypt?

"Reputation is just a question of outside perception of a nation.  It has nothing to do with what the nation is actually doing."

Agree entirely, except that such reputation is not only a questino of perception of that nation from the outside, but also from within. 

As a general rule, the 'facts' presented by the fact-providing source are irrelevant if the legitimacy of the fact-providing source is in question. 

In this case, the source for the 'facts' about what the US is actually doing in the world (and in its own country) is monopolized, for the source is the US government itself - an inherent conflict of interest that results in tyranny.

The facts which would portray what the US is doing exactly is typically classified / kept secret from the public by the US government.  Naturally, then, there is going to be a low perception of the legitimacy of the US government as the source of the few facts that are declassified, or released, leaked to / uncovered by the press, for it is perfectly plain to see by the very prevalence of there being secret or classified 'facts' to begin with that of course the public is not going to be fully informed as to what the US is actually doing.  There is no way for the public, then, to determine whether or not the US is in fact doing as it claims, in this case 'promoting democracy / democratic values in a morally responsible manner.

The recourse, for an inquisitive public concerned with whether or not the US is in fact promoting democratic values / democracy responsibly is to compile facts from the little information that is available to them and do so in light of the actual prevalence of democratic values / democracy at home and abroad, filtered by their personal, subjective experiences of democratic values / democracy in their own lives.

The issue is that clearly a growing number of people's evidential experiences of democratic values / democracy reveals the contrary as to what the US government claims.  They perceive a police state, corruption, elitism, the promotion of anti-democratic values, the degradation of the rule of law as it might suit military and / or economic interests of an increasingly global, unaffiliated elite, and a general lack of a humanitarian ethos, etc..

There comes a point, often suddenly and without warning, catching the 'fact'-providing governing authority unawares, when the public at home and abroad simply ceases to recognize the legitimacy of their governing authority.

For most governments in the world, such is happening as we speak: the general public of the entire world does not place much credence in the stated purposes or claims made by governments as such might be presented by government-sponsored leaks to the mass-media.

Plainly put, its no secret anymore that what governments are actually doing is secret and in many cases irresponsible, anti0thetical to democratic values, evidenced by people's subjective experiences to that effect.  It is generally understood that any facts released in an attempt to portray governments in better light in this regard is propaganda.  People understand they are not going to be adequately informed to the extent that they could possibly be responsible voters, and, as such, there is a growing sense of the illegitimacy of the entire system.

The social consciousness of the world's people as a whole can be characterized, I think, as deeply embittered resignation to the tyranny inherent to very design of what is clearly an illegitimate system.

28 (edited by The Yell 07-Sep-2013 18:43:28)

Re: Why is US still funding Egypt?

The Emperor has dismissed the Imperial Security Council

Inertia will keep the provinces in line

Apparently about a third of America thinks we will run this planet because, we do, and you're all  not going to rock the boat, and, we said so.  Now, buy our bonds.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

29 (edited by Xeno 07-Sep-2013 19:47:16)

Re: Why is US still funding Egypt?

"We reject the possibility that the United States is acting in a manner to spread democracy promotion because there's a reputation for the United States acting in its own interests. "

I didn't say the basis for the belief that the US ISN'T acting in a manner to spread democracy is based solely on the US's reputation.  Rather, the reputation that the US isn't acting in a manner to spread democracy is based on the few observable facts people do perceive in their respective contexts, coupled with the widespread understanding  that the purported facts surrounding the real activity and intentions of the US or any government as it is released by the government or maionstream media is necessarily going to be manipulated, slanted, and controlled, and, therefore, inherently inaccurate.  This is due to there being a long-established culture of acting covertly by government under long-established secrecy schemes that are antithetical to democracy and democratic values.  In other words, the very fact that their governments act in secret can lead people to doubt the veracity of any claims made by government.

I sincerely believe the only way forward out of this mess is for all governments to air their dirty laundry and cross their fingers, hoping the people of the world give them some credit for doing so, which would allow governments to retain at least some semblance of legitimacy among their populations.  Otherwise, eventually, inevitably, there willl be an complete collapse of the public's sense of legitimacy of the institution of government itself in any of its forms.

Seriously, to avert complete catastrophe and anarchy, governments around the world ought to agree to dismantle their respective cultures of secrecy and replace them with a global system of fool-proof, fully transparent, accountability.

Re: Why is US still funding Egypt?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24470121

So apparently, the answer is "inertia," i.e., "don't expect governments to do what you think they should do immediately."

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31 (edited by Xeno 10-Oct-2013 16:08:12)

Re: Why is US still funding Egypt?

"the suspension of aid is more symbolic - a slap on the wrist - than a painful cut in essential aid. "

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24470121

Covering their own @r$$es is all it is.  Now after Egypt uses US military hardware to enforce despotism and commit mass murder of civilians, the US can say, "Well we withdrew military aid...we're innocent in all of this."

The whole Middle East is a tinderbox, and it couldn't have been any other than such, due to the very nature of civilization.

I'm more convinced than ever before that the survival of humanity and life on Earth as we know it depends on people the world over beginning to operate their day-to-day lives within a new social-economic-political paradigm.

For this to occur, our culture must accurately represent the fact that our current paradigm is systemically at odds with universally-held values of liberty, democracy, human rights, and our innate sense of compassion for each other and for life.

Re: Why is US still funding Egypt?

Wait... isn't the withdrawal of aid to Egypt exactly what you asked for in your OP?

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Re: Why is US still funding Egypt?

The Great Eye wrote:

Wait... isn't the withdrawal of aid to Egypt exactly what you asked for in your OP?

They didn't withdraw the aid, only a portion of it, enough to cover their asses and at the same time maintain their leverage over the Egyptian state in the future.

Suspicions run high that the coup was orchestrated / sanctioned by US government / military because Morsi proved uncooperative with interests of US power brokers.

History will tell, I suppose, just as it does for Okinawa, Chile, Argentina, Cuba, Nicuragua, Honduras, Japan, Germany, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan - shall I go on and on and on and on and on???