poor people tend to get more kids its in the statistics, their poor for a reason, if they had anny exclusive talent theil get there eventually just with more efford.
giving them free money doesnt realy work =p then why should they work hard their getting their money to live and enjoy their lives with.

it aint as simple as take money from the rich to give the poor.

With an abundance of land - oh, wait, we already have an over-abundance of land, arable land, with an over-abundance of food production capacity, yet housing and food is scarce.  Why is this?

> Paininside wrote:

> poor people tend to get more kids its in the statistics, their poor for a reason, if they had anny exclusive talent theil get there eventually just with more efford.
giving them free money doesnt realy work =p then why should they work hard their getting their money to live and enjoy their lives with.

it aint as simple as take money from the rich to give the poor.<<

Yeah but that implies the rich earned anything

?! explain!

Wow.  You guys certainly have a lot of time on your hands.  I don't have time to respond to all of the points you press me to respond to and then accuse me of conceding a point when I don't respond to them.

The trouble with our 'discussions', Kemp, is that my points rest on the assumption that the markets are NOT functioning 'freely' as Adam Smith envisioned they should.  You do concede in part that there is a problem in this regard, but not to the point that free market principles aren't at play.  Herein lies the root of our disputes.  There is no point in answering your arguments because yours rest on the assumption that the free market is at play.  I have asked you to show me otherwise, but you don't.

Different countries manipulate prices of various products and services: everything from resources to manufacturing to education and healthcare.  One country's population gets virtually free energy, while another spends 20% of its wealth on it; one society might provide universal medicare, while another has only for-profit healthcare; one might have publicly-funded education up through university level, while another might have only private schools; one country subsidizes its food, while another imports subsidized food from other countries; one country's real-estate market might be leased to the public from government, while other nation's real-estate market might be thoroughly private and deregulated.  Yet there is global trade between these nations, each nation manipulating policies to give what it perceives is an economic advantage over another: it is not a level playing field, Kemp.  It is a maze construed so that only a select few may be permitted to navigate it. 

Prices of goods and services vary from country to country, and trade restrictions and agreements, tarifs, etc., are everywhere.  And then there are domestic controls on production through licensing issuance policies, a nation's industry regulators, various restrictions issued by courts on municipal, state, federal levels, which further hinder the opportunities of entrepreneurs who would want to work purely domestically, not even globally: it's a quagmire of bureaucracy at all levels international and domestic, the motivation behind which is NOT an authentic concern for preserving what are virtually completely bastardized free market principals, but, rather, preserving the interests of those few who have the resources to navigate through the bureaucratic quagmire.  In most instances these are the bureaucrats themselves who created the quagmire in the first place, so as to pursue their own interests, and so as to thwart competition, certainly NOT not foster it. 

I mean, Kemp, I have already expressed this to you but you never seem to budge on your belief - from my perspective an unfounded, irrational belief - that there is a free market at play.  There isn't.  I honestly wish there were.  But there isn't, Kemp.  And so any of your arguments that rest on the assumption that there are free market principles at play are invalid, and unsound, and futile to discuss.

Unless you can prove there are free market principles at play; that the market - the global market - does function as Adam Smith envisioned a market should, there is nothing more for us to discuss.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong in this regard, but evidence is everywhere that the free market is usurped, was usurped over 50 years ago domestically in most 'developed' countries, and has certainly never functioned globally.  Yet politicians espouse policy as if it does function.  It's insane, Kemp!

Again, convince me the market functions according to 'free-market principles'.  Maybe start with why goods tend to be sold in the country where they are produced for more money than they are sold in the nations that import them?

Don't bother. He refuses to talk about the topic. The last time we tried, it took pages, he had a psychotic break, and he then vehemently denied having made the only claims he had clearly made on the topic (many times, no less).

It took 4 days and pages filled with spam to get that wall of text. He gave no response to the fact that he didn't even make an argument for days. He probably still hasn't. I don't care to read more to confirm this. 4 days and 3 pages is certainly enough good-will which was unjustified.

Honestly, what are we to make of silliness like this?
" I have already expressed this to you but you never seem to budge on your belief...."

For 4 days he didn't even make an argument, and now we have condescension. I don't even care to read all that garbage. Not making an argument for 4 days and then posting nonsense like that is just too childish to interest me.

My throat is fine. I'm Batman!

Also, I'm Spartacus!

I try not to judge.

"the price that people pay outside of america for food does not even remotely reflect the actual price"

You don't mention that this is due to government subsidies.  Subsidies, coupled with increased efficiency of American producers due to larger scale operations, higher levels of technology, causes farmers in developing countries (who would still use horses, oxen, and / or manual labor or, if they are lucky a 50-year-old tractor) to be unable to compete.

They go out of business, and so do their entire towns and villages.  Then, they sell their land to smuggle their way into America to get jobs bagging your groceries.  Nice.

> twosidedeath wrote:

> free market is in play, not in every aspect. i cant go out and buy every brand on an orange juice at every store, but if i look i can find them elsewhere. at one time in america the bell company was in fact a monopoly and even when devised these companies simlpy cooperated together. now there are smaller companies growing and making it to the scene.

>when we talk about food aid or any third world country, no there is no market, there is no bought and sold product in effect, the price that people pay outside of america for food does not even remotely reflect the actual price it takes to produce and distrobute these foods. your welcome world we pay for your food... but yes go to china and tell me free market isnt playing hell on thier businesses right now because they allowed outside cometition into thier lands.

It is sure that people get a 'sense' that free market principles are functioning.  They can go from one store to another and get slightly different prices for various similar products.  This is not an effect of authentic free market principles at work, however.

One has to understand the forces that effect prices; this is very complex and convoluted due to the many variables that via policy governments and colluding corporations influence.

Consider how in one country having no minimum wage effects low cost of production while in another country high minimum wage results in a higher cost of production, often resulting in one country not being able to compete with another in the production of the same product or service.  This is just one factor.  There are literally thousands of other variables, variables which are manipulated.

Another is tax laws which allows wealth and incurred income to be tax-sheltered, or hidden offshore, and the effect of this is to force governments to raise taxes on the poor and middle classes (who don't have the wealth to hide offshore) to make up shortfalls of lower than expected tax income.

Another is organized labor; another is professional associations, licensing requirements.. the list goes on and on and on...

I'll give two examples of how these thwart the authentic functioning of the free market as it might function in a parallel universe:

In a typical American town in a parallel universe where there is an America whose economy actually functions within an authentic free market system, there is a vendor who sells popcorn and wine outside a multi-plex movie theatre.  He sets up a cart every evening as movie goers come and go out of the theatre.  Customers purchase his popcorn and wine on their way out and in.  On the sidewalk there are a couple of chairs and tables where people can sit and have their wine if they want.  There are from time to time other vendors who sell home-grown, home-roasted, freshly brewed coffee, home-made candy, and other home-made snacks, even another vendor who sells homemade wine and popcorn.  The other vendor's wine is alright, but not quite as good as his own, he thinks.  Their prices are similar, but his own prices are a little higher: his customers are willing to pay a slightly higher price because they think his wine is slightly better.  He changes the price from time to time, but no more than maybe 5% more than what other people charge, because, honestly, he knows his wine isn't really THAT much better.  It is after all homemade wine.  Generally, home-brewers can sell a decent bottle of wine to a customer for $2 a litre and make a bit of profit - the popcorn is where he makes his money.  The corn he grows in his yard is very good, and it is cheap to grow - after all costs, he can sell a bag of fresh popcorn for less than a dollar and still make a profit.  He charges a little more than the theater does because, again, his customers think his popcron is better.

Here is how our universe is different:
The movie theater lobbies municipal government to pass bylaws to prevent any vendors from setting up shop anywhere near their premises.  They'll design their building so the entrance to the theater is no where near any public property even.    The movie theatre sells popcorn for, what, $10 a bag?  And the same company that owns the theater owns shares in the agri-business that produces corn, and, thanks to government subsidies that taxes on the sale of movie tickets and popcorn in part pay for, that $10 / bag is a markup of thousands of percents.  They'll call security and physically assault you while tossing you out onto the street if you insist on bringing your own popcorn into the theatre.  And producing your own wine for resale anywhere let alone outside a movie theatre?  Forget it.  In our universe it is illegal to produce it for resale in most places.  And producing your own popcorn?  Good luck getting arable land to grow your own food, let alone competing with agri-business propped up by government subsidies.  Besides, having a glass of wine or any alcohol - let alone home-brewed stuff - in public is forbidden in most countries!

Free market?  Does not apply in America, or anywhere else for that matter, in our universe at least.  We have no choice but to keep paying $20 for a  popcorn and sugar-water combo.

The same mindset that results in such a state of affairs at your local movie theater is the same mindset that results in the state of affairs of our economy in all its facets everywhere.  Sure you can go to a different movie theater or company, but, honestly, is there any REAL difference in the quality or price of yoru experience between them?  Is there any theatre or company that must compete with vendors selling their home-made production within an authentic free market system where real competition and thus an equilibrium towards lower prices is fostered?  Nope.  The 'sense' the consumer gets that there is free market is an illusion.

where does this leave poor people who win the lottery?

"In a typical American town in a parallel universe where there is an America whose economy actually functions within an authentic free market system, there is a vendor who sells popcorn and wine outside a multi-plex movie theatre.  He sets up a cart every evening as movie goers come and go out of the theatre.  Customers purchase his popcorn and wine on their way out and in.  On the sidewalk there are a couple of chairs and tables where people can sit and have their wine if they want.  There are from time to time other vendors who sell home-grown, home-roasted, freshly brewed coffee, home-made candy, and other home-made snacks, even another vendor who sells homemade wine and popcorn.  The other vendor's wine is alright, but not quite as good as his own, he thinks.  Their prices are similar, but his own prices are a little higher: his customers are willing to pay a slightly higher price because they think his wine is slightly better.  He changes the price from time to time, but no more than maybe 5% more than what other people charge, because, honestly, he knows his wine isn't really THAT much better.  It is after all homemade wine.  Generally, home-brewers can sell a decent bottle of wine to a customer for $2 a litre and make a bit of profit - the popcorn is where he makes his money.  The corn he grows in his yard is very good, and it is cheap to grow - after all costs, he can sell a bag of fresh popcorn for less than a dollar and still make a profit.  He charges a little more than the theater does because, again, his customers think his popcron is better."

...Sigh...  In your paralleled universe the theater would close after one month.  The movie theater makes little money from ticket sales so its rent, employees wages, electricity is all paid for by concessions.  After it closed, the popcorn place in front would go bankrupt because who in the hell wanders a vacant parking lot looking for wine and popcorn. 

You see, a movie theater does not stay in business by selling movie tickets - it makes money by playing movies to bring people in to buy its concessions.

And by the way.  Currently in the real world, I can walk across the street to the coffee shop and buy coffee or the bar and get a drink.