Re: Why the universe is empty...

"Or have we already spent too much on ridiculously frivolous endeavors: wars, new cars and mobile phones every few years, etc.?"

If I, as a free man, decide that I want a new mobile phone (I don't know, because it also acts as my dictionary because it allows me to write characters and not spend 30 minutes looking them up in a traditional dictionary), am I not allowed to because someone decided to pool all of the resources into ONE plan to travel to the stars? Also, where would we go? Why? The universe is not like it is on Star Trek or Star Wars, but I think you will find that there is not that many places that could support life as we know it. I for one do not want to live on Neptune, Mars, the Moon, and would rather the wealth that I actually work for to make my life here comfortable. Also, most of our wealth will also be invested in our own children, such as living costs, education, health care, housing, etc, so where does all of this extra free wealth come from? Are we as a society, not allowed to have the metal needed to create stripper poles, for the lonely workers who spend all day toiling in the fields/construction yards to fulfil your dream, to enjoy themselves for a brief moment?

Also, things like buying a new car doesnt mean that the old car is no longer used, but sold to someone else for use. If it is not, that generally means that the car is no longer viable for a reliable means of transportation. So what then? Does that person not use a car? Does he have to walk everywhere? No, he invests what he has earned in a free market (which you do advocate, and also advocate the middle class having more of the wealth too) to spend how he sees fit. But yet here, he is not allowed to get a new phone/car because it is wasteful? Are people still allowed to have their freedom to make themselves happy, or are we going to move to an authoritarian government to realise a stupid dream of space travel (really, see my previous thread on space travel)?

I give your invention the worst score imaginable. An A minus MINUS!
~Wornstrum~

Re: Why the universe is empty...

"am I not allowed to because someone decided to pool all of the resources into ONE plan to travel to the stars?"

Yes. Under communism, your productivity will be directed as your overlords see fit. Screw your convenience, we need to spend 2 trillion on space exploration this year.

"So what then? Does that person not use a car? Does he have to walk everywhere?"

Sacrifices must be made. The greatest good for the greatest number. When your goal is the stars, no sacrifice is too great!

"No, he invests what he has earned in a free market (which you do advocate, and also advocate the middle class having more of the wealth too) to spend how he sees fit."

He advocates free markets in name only. In other text he constantly advocates high taxes on any extra wealth which could be "invested." To xeno, if you have enough to invest in anything, you have too much and it should be taxed at a very high rate until you don't have it any more.

Don't feed trolls.

"Are people still allowed to have their freedom to make themselves happy...."

No. He's been very clear on this.

"or are we going to move to an authoritarian government to realise a stupid dream of space travel (really, see my previous thread on space travel)?"

No dream is too stupid for xeno.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Why the universe is empty...

"Ours is a permanently repressive society. You have to consider, Yell, to what extent is the system designed STEAL from the poor so that an elite few can get ahead?  When a government swimming in debt has no choice but to sell its mineral rights to a corporation or face bankruptcy; face having its people starve, face riots and perhaps civil war; when elites have connived to orchestrate evens and manipulate markets so that nations would be in this position, it becomes THEFT by the elite against the poor."

No it is not permanently repressive.  The example of "repression" is progress you ass.  When a country finds mineral wealth, sells licences to foriegn corporations, employs its people extracting the wealth from the ground, the economy of the country grows.  YOU sigh and wish they went back to eating antelopes and berries.  NOBODY. WANTS. THAT.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Why the universe is empty...

My friend, you are getting bogged down in "facts." What you need to do is accept the superior intellectual _idea_ that everything can be better managed with community operation of everything by the "middle class." Freedom is overrated. Only community ownership of everything and shared profits can benefit society! Facts be damned, I'm the smartest guy in the room and I know my idea is the best.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

55 (edited by xeno syndicated 17-Jul-2012 01:00:53)

Re: Why the universe is empty...

> ~Wornstrum~ wrote:

> "Or have we already spent too much on ridiculously frivolous endeavors: wars, new cars and mobile phones every few years, etc.?"

If I, as a free man, decide that I want a new mobile phone (I don't know, because it also acts as my dictionary because it allows me to write characters and not spend 30 minutes looking them up in a traditional dictionary), am I not allowed to because someone decided to pool all of the resources into ONE plan to travel to the stars? Also, where would we go? Why? The universe is not like it is on Star Trek or Star Wars, but I think you will find that there is not that many places that could support life as we know it. I for one do not want to live on Neptune, Mars, the Moon, and would rather the wealth that I actually work for to make my life here comfortable. Also, most of our wealth will also be invested in our own children, such as living costs, education, health care, housing, etc, so where does all of this extra free wealth come from? Are we as a society, not allowed to have the metal needed to create stripper poles, for the lonely workers who spend all day toiling in the fields/construction yards to fulfil your dream, to enjoy themselves for a brief moment?

Also, things like buying a new car doesnt mean that the old car is no longer used, but sold to someone else for use. If it is not, that generally means that the car is no longer viable for a reliable means of transportation. So what then? Does that person not use a car? Does he have to walk everywhere? No, he invests what he has earned in a free market (which you do advocate, and also advocate the middle class having more of the wealth too) to spend how he sees fit. But yet here, he is not allowed to get a new phone/car because it is wasteful? Are people still allowed to have their freedom to make themselves happy, or are we going to move to an authoritarian government to realise a stupid dream of space travel (really, see my previous thread on space travel)?



Authoritarian government is the only sort of government there is, and there are only two types: 1.  those which strive to establish a system whereby there are ample economic opportunities for everyone to fulfill their basic needs and 2.  those that do not, and rather maintain the opportunity for an elite's to pursue decadence at the expense of the majority's opportunity to fulfill their basic needs.  The latter is the sort in which context our species devolves (perhaps to the extent that it takes them 30 minutes to look up a word in a traditional dictionary?).

Ours is the sort of society where we will probably send an elite few instead of everyone, where we will exhaust our planet's resources to send them.   The vast majority of our species (and potentially life itself on this planet) will probably be asked to sacrifice itself to send the worst of our species to colonize space (the most complacent, the most lustful, most greedy, the least questioning, least cooperative, most obliging).  The majority of humanity will either permit such fraud against the human race to occur, or it will not.

Re: Why the universe is empty...

"(perhaps to the extent that it takes them 30 minutes to look up a word in a traditional dictionary?)"

You knew exactly what I meant with that, and if you haven't used a traditional chinese dictionary to look up a word, then I invite you to try.

"Authoritarian government is the only sort of government there is"

So, as long as the authoritarian government is doing what is in YOUR interests, it is ok? I just explained that I am not interested in your fantasy, yet you advocate a government that would force that on me (and subvert the free market to do so). Since my question was about the freedom of individuals in both daily life and economic ventures, your answer seems to suggest that they are only allowed such freedoms if it coincides with an authoritarian governments desires (and that the only worthwhile government is an authoritarian government who uses the resources in something I do not want). I am very glad I am not living in your utopia Xeno...

I give your invention the worst score imaginable. An A minus MINUS!
~Wornstrum~

Re: Why the universe is empty...

When he doesn't like an idea like democratic government, he claims it doesn't exist. Nevermind how broken it may or may not be, there's no need for discussion when you just outright deny its very obvious existence.

Don't feed trolls.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Why the universe is empty...

"yet you advocate a government that would force that on me (and subvert the free market to do so)"

Wow.  Even mods are slandering me now.  maybe Kemp and wornstrum are the same person?

When did I advocate ANY sort of government?

59 (edited by xeno syndicated 17-Jul-2012 21:36:53)

Re: Why the universe is empty...

Civilization is a revolution against greed, lust, and other base motivators, one which started 10's of thousands of years ago with the first tribe to extend a burning branch to a member of another tribe WITHOUT the expectation of any compensation in return other than the expectation of forging a bond of trust and cooperation between equals.  This act was in opposition to those with the tendency to steal, murder, and pillage fire from competing tribes, the kind of humans, sadly, who all too often end up gaining political influence and material affluence. This is an ancient revolution, one with only two sides.  Which side are you on, Kemp?

Re: Why the universe is empty...

Wow what a false argument! A or B only man! Woohoo!

Xeno is so desperate now.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Why the universe is empty...

When did I advocate ANY sort of government?

post #30, page 2,

"Governments should be operating at a PROFIT (to the extent that NOBODY needs to pay taxes at all) and use that profit to further the economic opportunities of the poor and middle class, and transform society into one whose economy rewards cooperation, egalitarianism - a free market system without anti-trust activity, one where consumers and employees, business and government are receive economic rewards because they act ethically and suffer economically when they act unethically."

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Why the universe is empty...

> The Yell wrote:

> When did I advocate ANY sort of government?

post #30, page 2,

"Governments should be operating at a PROFIT (to the extent that NOBODY needs to pay taxes at all) and use that profit to further the economic opportunities of the poor and middle class, and transform society into one whose economy rewards cooperation, egalitarianism - a free market system without anti-trust activity, one where consumers and employees, business and government are receive economic rewards because they act ethically and suffer economically when they act unethically."

Okay, and what kind of government is that, Yell?  Communist?  Fascist?  A constitutional monarchy?  An anarchistic tribal federation?  What?

I am not arguing for ANY specific kind of government, but rather qualities which governments of ALL KINDS should foster.

Re: Why the universe is empty...

xeno, "Any" means "a single example"

"not any" means "none"

the one example you did call for means you did call for "any" government and are not justified in saying "not any"

You have an example of a properly functioning government.  We do not like it.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Why the universe is empty...

"When did I advocate ANY sort of government?"

When you advocated 99% corporate taxation. When you advocated wealth redistribution--which is literally every day. We keep asking you, if not government, what can have the authority to do what you demand _constantly_? And you never answer. Magical fairies? Because they don't exist. Government is the only thing that can redistribute wealth, and you demand redistribution constantly. Denying that you call for government--very powerful government, at that--is _stupid_.

"Okay, and what kind of government is that, Yell?  Communist?  Fascist?  A constitutional monarchy?  An anarchistic tribal federation?  What?"

It's a fictitious government. You gave no source of revenue with which it could function nor enumerated its powers. You didn't even mention a government, you just gave us some vague bullshit.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Why the universe is empty...

""yet you advocate a government that would force that on me (and subvert the free market to do so)"

Wow.  Even mods are slandering me now.  maybe Kemp and wornstrum are the same person?

When did I advocate ANY sort of government?"

"Okay, and what kind of government is that, Yell?  Communist?  Fascist?  A constitutional monarchy?  An anarchistic tribal federation?  What?"

Well I didn't say it was a particular kind of government did I? I only pointed out that what you are ACTUALLY wanting here, is that all of Earth's resources go towards space colonisation. I did not like this idea. I do not want to participate in such a venture. I think this sort of plan has little benefit to "mankind". The ONLY way I would be apart of this idea, is if it was FORCED onto me, which is subversion of my freedoms because I would not be able to undertake economic ventures...If I can undertake economic ventures freely (in a free market), then there should be little complaining of the way the wealth gets spent. You brought up that we are a consumer generation (new phone's, cars, etc) and that this was bad because it is wasteful. Are we, as the people of many nations, not able to determine how we spend our accumulated wealth, or do certain projects (space colonisation) take precedence? Simply put, are you for or against the current spending of wealth in the world? Why/why not?

I give your invention the worst score imaginable. An A minus MINUS!
~Wornstrum~

Re: Why the universe is empty...

The evil bankers stole all his money! What money? The money he would have if the system wasn't rigged against him! He'd be rich if those bankers and big business hadn't stolen his imaginary money! *runs off like a raving lunatic, appropriate for his xeno impression*

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Why the universe is empty...

"You have an example of a properly functioning government."

More slander.  Now from Yell.  I guess it is because thinks the only way to solve the problem is change the form of government.  I wonder, Yell, what brings you to this assumption?  Could it be that you have it in your mindset that forms of governments need to be changed; that they can't themselves change?  That they can't adapt or innovate?  It must be in your mindset to overthrow government in order to replace it. Yell, do you intend to try and overthrow the government?  Answer for the record, please.

I honestly don't understand why you can't understand what I am saying.  Here.  Let me say it as simply as possible:

I am not seeking to provide an example of any properly functioning form of government, I am seeking to provide an example of how any form of government could function properly.

68 (edited by xeno syndicated 19-Jul-2012 09:24:15)

Re: Why the universe is empty...

"I only pointed out that what you are ACTUALLY wanting here, is that all of Earth's resources go towards space colonisation."

More slander from a mod.

Where did I say we should use all of Earth's resources for space colonization?  Are you kidding me, wornstrum?  I would tend to expect better from you.  What brought you to this conclusion?

"Are we, as the people of many nations, not able to determine how we spend our accumulated wealth, or do certain projects (space colonisation) take precedence? Simply put, are you for or against the current spending of wealth in the world? Why/why not?"

What an intelligent, tricky little question.  Why would you think to ask it, I wonder?  Because you are assuming I am in favor of controlling resources and using ALL of them for the purpose of space colonization.  You are caught up in the dichotomous way of thinking that Yell and Kemp are: that there are only two choices, control the economy or allow for a free market.  Yet you, like them, are under the illusion that there is any free market.  How you could possibly be of the opinion that there is any such thing as a free market while you are living in China of all places where EVERY significant aspect of the economy is controlled?  Can you not see, Wornstrum, that as China's economy continues to grow, China's tendency to control its economy requires the rest of the world to control theirs too? This is aside from the matter, really, since all nations have tended to control and manipulate the most significant aspects of their economies regardless of their political systems.  You, like Kemp and Yell, use the term 'free market' as a tag phrase to toss about by people who have no idea what it is, can't prove it exists, and yet do so because their idea of the idea fits their misguided ideological political framework.  The free market is a fantastical notion which hasn't really applied in any significant way for at least 50 years now, and people like Kemp and Yell and Einstein use it as justification policies that have horrific effects on humanity all over the world.  These effects because they implement policies based on their false assumptions. 

Take a look around your neighborhood there in China and ask yourself, is there a free market at work here?  Notice also how China's economy isn't very different from anywhere else?  You have your Mcdonaldes, buses, subways, malls, etc., mom and pop shops, and maybe a few more street vendors than elsewhere, but it is pretty much the same as anywhere on the surface.  Well, guess what, it's not just a surface-deep similarity.  It is of course government-manipulated, controlled, a bit more so than some countries and less so than others, but controlled nonetheless just like everywhere else.  Where's your free market?  Just as it is an illusion in Australia, so too it is an illusion in China, but just more obviously so.  Your dichotomous way of thinking doesn't fit with how the world really works, Wornstrum.  There is no dichotomy; there's no choice between controlled economy or free market, only choices between varying extents of controlled-economies. 

What is the purpose of the control?  What is the end result?  Well, obviously, funneling increasingly outrageous amounts of wealth to the rich for which they would invest in...what?  Nothing in particular really: commodities of various sorts from time to time, real-estate, various equities - just production, growth, for the purpose of simply getting wealthier, more.  There's no objective or purpose or aim or even thought as to how resources should be used.  This brings me to your other fallacy:

" Are we, as the people of many nations, not able to determine how we spend our accumulated wealth"

Your fallacy is that there's no determination being made on how to spend it.  The only determination being made is to spend more of it: more roads, more cities, more planes, trains and automobiles, more apartments, more sprawl, for no apparent purpose other than growth.

Don't try to say I am against growth.  I certainly am not against it.  I am for far more growth than we are experiencing.  I am against the hindered growth we are experiencing.  I have often said it is a crime that we are effectively rendering the basic needs necessary for people to breed artificially scarce through the control of our economies.  I am thoroughly and completely against this neo-malthusian 'mal'practice. 

Instead, we should using our wealth to create a civilization where every nation of every form of government can afford to send anyone who wants to to the stars. And I believe this would happen with less control over economies than governments currently demonstrate.

Re: Why the universe is empty...

Please don't feed the troll.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Why the universe is empty...

A free market is the absence of your silly theories of stealing from producers on the grounds they took from some third party; that you can tell how much they took; that you can take it away from them; that you will see it is spent "properly" for the benefit of unseen third parties without asking them.

Either such crap is present, or it is absent.  Freedom is that absence.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Why the universe is empty...

shaddap Spock, I'm earning biologiical reward points.

I've only heard one other source for the idea of biological rewards from govt to favored citizens:

General "Buck" Turgidson: Doctor, you mentioned the ratio of ten women to each man. Now, wouldn't that necessitate the abandonment of the so-called monogamous sexual relationship, I mean, as far as men were concerned?

Dr. Strangelove: Regrettably, yes. But it is, you know, a sacrifice required for the future of the human race. I hasten to add that since each man will be required to do prodigious... service along these lines, the women will have to be selected for their sexual characteristics which will have to be of a highly stimulating nature.

Ambassador de Sadesky: I must confess, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Why the universe is empty...

shaddap Yell, you're better than this! You can spoon feed it to him like a small child and he'll just insist that communism and slavery are necessary for freedom. When you change the definitions of words freely, there's nothing you can't claim.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Why the universe is empty...

Wornstrum, it's occurred to me that I can use the same tactics of harassment, slander and insult Kemp has used on me to suppress discussion on your ideas, for your act of permitting Kemp to do so to me, permits me to do so to you, wornstrum, and the rest of the moderators on this forum.  So, if only to show you how heinous Kemp has been and how deserving of sanction he is by the mods, I'll even use his own words as he's addressed me in other posts to address you. 

It's nothing personal, just a point I am going to make for your consideration.

I expect I won't experience any sanctions from you, for if I do you and the entire mod community will be exposed as hypocrites.

You cannot allow posters like Kemp to act the way he has in 'discussion' with me if mods will not condone the same conduct in 'discussions' with yourselves.

Re: Why the universe is empty...

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/562732_10151278409713747_1803351199_n.jpg

YOU called me a commie fifth columnist for no reason!

I never called you a commie

I (accurately) said you promoted theft, confiscation, political repression of free choice

if that reminds you of something nasty, blame yerself

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Why the universe is empty...

Sorry, he's busy crying about me. He didn't respond to you at all. In my defense, we can be reasonably certain he was going to ignore your rational argument either way.

It's ironic that he says he can do what I do. I would have responded to [almost] literally every statement you said that I disagreed with and explained how/why. I would have met every argument you made with what I agreed with and didn't, and explained why I still hold a contrary position despite whatever concessions I made of your points. I'm pretty sure if he was remotely capable of talking about content and responding to arguments, he'd surely have tried it by now.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]